Phil Taylor interviews Clay Scroggins, former leader at North Point Community Church and author of How to Lead When You’re Not in Charge. Clay shares his journey from engineering student to pastor, his experience serving in multi-site church leadership, and his transition into speaking and consulting.
The conversation centers on leadership without authority—particularly relevant for executive pastors and second-chair leaders. Clay unpacks the myth that leadership requires a title and emphasizes influence as the true currency of leadership. He shares practical examples from both church and corporate environments, highlighting the importance of relational influence, emotional intelligence, and patience.
They also discuss navigating organizational limitations, creating “pockets of greatness,” and leading oneself when broader change isn’t possible. Clay addresses the tension of ambition in ministry, distinguishing between selfish ambition and healthy, God-honoring drive.
The episode also explores challenges like leading change in resistant environments, working under well-known leaders like Andy Stanley, and discerning when it’s time to stay or leave a role. The conversation is both practical and deeply reflective, offering encouragement and wisdom for leaders serving behind the scenes.
Mentioned Event
The XP Summit. Phil Taylor will be presenting at this year’s XP Summit. You can get your tickets at: xpsummit.org
The Church Hub: The Church Hub serves pastors, ministry leaders, and their spouses through equipping and training resources. Learn more at https://thechurchhub.org
CHAPTERS
[04:00] – Clay’s Ministry Journey
[11:00] – The Myth of Leadership Titles
[17:20] – Authority vs. Influence
[25:18] – Creating a Pocket of Greatness
[29:00] – When to Stay or Leave a Role
[33:00] – Healthy vs. Unhealthy Ambition
[39:00] – Leading Change Without Authority
[43:00] – Working Under a High-Profile Leader
[47:00] – Final Encouragement & Resources
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Editing and Support by The Good Podcast Co.
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Ep 7_Clay Scroggins
[00:00:00] Phil: Welcome to the Backstage Pastors Podcast, brought to you by the Church Hub. I’m your host, Phil Taylor, and my co-host on the other side of the country is Tyler Ditz. Tyler who, who do we make this podcast for?
[00:00:22] Tyler: Phil, this podcast is specifically for executive pastors and second chair leaders in a church and nonprofit space, and today we have a guest on the show who spent time serving in both of those.
[00:00:34] Phil: Yeah, clay Scroggins was kind of the XP at north Point Church with Andy Stanley. I say kind of because they did titles a little bit differently there, which we’ll talk about in the interview. He wrote a book called How to Lead When You’re Not In Charge. And I gotta be honest with you, I had this book on my shelf for a long time and I had not read it.
But I but I did finally get around to reading it. And I’ll tell you what, it’s actually really, really good. I think it’s a, it’s a [00:01:00] fast read and I think anybody who is in a second share role is gonna get a lot out of it. You know, it’s one of those books that I read in an afternoon and gained a lot from it, and I think you’ll enjoy it if you’re in that space as well.
For sure. After Clay left his role at North Point Church, he. Started his own thing, serving churches, serving nonprofits, and even in the business world. And you could check that out at all of that, the work that he does@clayscroggins.com. Tyler, you had to miss this interview but it was a great interview and I kind of feel bad that you missed it ’cause he’s a great dude.
It was a fun one.
[00:01:35] Tyler: I was bummed to miss it. I was out traveling, but excited that we were able to have him on the show. Now Phil, I, I know that we both spend quite a bit of time serving churches, so what are you working on right now that you’re particularly excited about?
[00:01:48] Phil: You know, I feel like I spend every day all day long talking to pastors all over the country through my pla, my role at Plain Joe Studios, where we’re helping churches do building projects and [00:02:00] whatnot.
But on the side of that, I also get to coach a number of executive pastors. And as I think about all the different XPS that I’m coaching right now, I feel like all of them are people who are just, really top notch in their roles. It’s one of those situations where even though you know, they’re paying me to guide and coach them a little bit, I feel like I walk away from a lot of the calls going, man, that was really good.
Like, I just, I got something out of that, even though that wasn’t the intention there. And so that’s always really fun when when it feels like a little bit of a, a two-way street. How about you, Tyler? What what are you excited about that you’re doing? You serve a lot of churches too.
[00:02:38] Tyler: Yeah, absolutely.
I think one that sticks out in mind recently is through Ridgeline Printing. We were able to partner with this church in Denver that had this big vision for Easter and just kind of inviting the city of Denver to come and be a part of an Easter service. Not really associated with any individual church, but just let’s provide a space for people to do Easter, and so they.
[00:03:00] Rented a big temporary space and all of that. And of course when you’re in those kind of temporary spaces, signage becomes a big issue. But the thing that people run into is signage can be so expensive and Oh yeah. And again, you know, signage is never free. But we were just so grateful to be able to come alongside this church, understand the vision of what they were doing, and as they had kind of looked around and got.
Quotes we were able to save them over $4,000 on top of that kind of next level printer that was looking to kind of produce the same stuff. So love being able to partner with churches and love being able to allow them to do it inside of the budget that they have because we just, you know. Budgets are, budgets are hard to come by in the church, that’s for sure.
[00:03:41] Phil: That is very true. Well, that’s good stuff. Why don’t we get to this interview with Clay Scroggins.
Clay Scroggins, you spent 20 years in pastoral ministry. You have written a few books. You’ve got a [00:04:00] podcast. And now you are serving churches and organizations, businesses all over the place. Clay, welcome to the Backstage Pastors Podcast.
[00:04:09] Clay: Thanks, Phil. Glad to be, I feel like I’m an early adopter.
Really glad to be in on it, but we, we need more, I think we need more resources directed at the people that you’re trying to serve. So I’m really this was an easy yes for me, but thank, thank you for taking your spotlight and shining in on me. I appreciate that.
[00:04:24] Phil: Oh, man. That’s great. Well, hey, for for those who don’t know you just take a few sentences and give us like a, the TLDR on your ministry journey up till now.
[00:04:36] Clay: Yeah, I grew up in Alabama, moved to Atlanta to go to college, studied engineering. Quickly realized I did not need to be an engineer. The school agreed. They they did not think I should be one either. I did graduate with an engineering degree, but I mean, the best thing that happened to me while I was in Atlanta is I got plugged into a church here, a church called North Point which is up in Alpharetta Little
[00:04:54] Phil: church.
[00:04:55] Clay: Yeah, that’s right.
[00:04:56] Phil: People, people
[00:04:57] Clay: know it. I, I guess people definitely listen to this podcast. I [00:05:00] guess I don’t, I don’t know. I, I never know these days, Phil, what people know and don’t know. I feel that’s
[00:05:04] Phil: true.
[00:05:04] Clay: I feel a bit I’m still connected to the church world, but more disconnected than I’ve ever been.
But we I moved to Dallas, Texas to go to seminary. Met my wife there. She’s a Texan graduated from seminary. Helped start one of North Point’s campuses. I was a youth pastor and then served at the Alpharetta campus as a youth pastor and then became a campus pastor, or my last title there was they, they called our, we called our campus pastors, lead pastors, which that’s another conversation, but yeah, in kind of a second chair role for sure.
I, I, I wouldn’t even say second chair. It was more like the. I was in probably the 12th chair. That’s about the chair that I was in. So somebody needs to write that book, how to Serve a Church on the 12th Chair. You were
[00:05:45] Phil: like
[00:05:45] Clay: in the
[00:05:45] Phil: lo localized second chair, right?
[00:05:48] Clay: Yeah, that’s true. Yeah, that’s a good way to put it.
Yeah. I was a campus pastor at three different campuses. One in Cumming. Called Browns Bridge one in Alpharetta. That was the original one that’s called North Point. And then my last tour [00:06:00] of duty, I served at Buckhead Church, which is in the city of Atlanta, which is where we live now. We got five kids.
We got a dog who I’m hoping is not gonna bark at this landscaping truck that’s driving by right now. Yeah, I quit my job in 21. That’s a whole conversation and a great amicable. I love North Point, feel so grateful for all that they did. God was just, I had me on my own journey and I’ve been, so now for five years I’ve been working for myself, doing a lot of keynote speaking.
I do some corporate keynote speaking at. You know, big company’s got like an offsite and they want to have, have somebody come and invest in their leaders and they’ll have me come in and most often it’s talking about leading when you’re not in charge. But there’s some other topics as well. And then preach at some churches still.
So we go to an Anglican church now.
[00:06:49] Phil: Oh wow.
[00:06:50] Clay: Which has been a really interesting experience. But yeah, doing great. Really grateful to be where God has me for sure.
[00:06:57] Phil: We actually went to the same seminary, clay. I [00:07:00] saw
Oh,
[00:07:00] Clay: you’re a DTS person.
[00:07:01] Phil: Yeah. I saw in your book you talked about DTSA couple of times, and you actually quoted my favorite professor at Dallas, Dr.
Hess. John h,
[00:07:10] Clay: Dr. H. Yeah. He was
[00:07:12] Phil: John h. Crack up.
[00:07:13] Clay: John Hanna is a legend.
[00:07:15] Phil: Oh my gosh. He was a church history professor there and I, I don’t know if he’s retired now or what, but man,
[00:07:21] Clay: he’s gotta be
[00:07:21] Phil: close to it. He was like so much more than a church history professor, right? Like he just
[00:07:25] Clay: Totally. Can I give you my two favorite John H
[00:07:29] Phil: Oh, please do
[00:07:30] Clay: Quis.
The first one was this. You know, so they do this orientation and you just get matched with a professor and then you go sit with like eight students and that professor can just talk about life. Which to your point, Dr. Hannah was not just a history professor. He had a lot of great things to say about life, but I’ve used this countless times.
But he said, let me tell you one of your biggest challenges that you’re gonna have in grad school is that a lot of, you’re married, some of you have kids, you got a job at a church. You got your finances to wi figure out, and then you’ve got. School. And that’s a lot [00:08:00] of things to keep in the air. And if you’re going to drop one of them, let it be your coursework, right?
’cause all of those other ones I just listed are more important.
[00:08:09] Phil: That’s right. Totally.
[00:08:11] Clay: I’m like, what? I’m like, what? Like I could hear my employer saying that, right? Or a marriage counselor saying that. But the person that is in charge of the theological studies saying that, that that was excellent. And then secondly I used this yesterday in a sermon, but you know, sometimes at the end of a.
End of a semester, they’ll open it up being like, we’ll do just general Q and a. Anything you want to ask. And, and naturally somebody would ask, you know, this is a very seminary like question, but what, what’s the key? Like what, like boil it all down? Like you’re, you’re at the time he was probably 65, 70 years old.
How do you have a faith in Jesus? How do you walk with him closely? How do you end well? And he said it’s very simple. You wake up in the morning and you read your Bible and you pray, and you do that every day. And that’s pretty much it.
[00:08:58] Phil: Right? [00:09:00] That’s awesome.
[00:09:00] Clay: I’m like, that is, that is very basic. But for someone as smart and as well studied to say that, yeah.
Right. Yeah. I mean that really,
[00:09:09] Phil: he’s got like three PhDs.
[00:09:11] Clay: Yeah, exactly. That’s really something. But that’s
[00:09:14] Phil: cool. My favorite John Hannah quote this, I didn’t know this was gonna be the John Hannah podcast episode, but my favorite John Hannah quote was somebody was asking in a class, they were like struggling with the fact that they, they didn’t think they were a dispensationalist anymore.
Which is of course, you know, that kind of the argument that goes on a lot at Dallas Seminary and, and, and so they were asking questions and, and he goes, he goes, you know, a lot of you are as you go through seminary, you’re, you’re trying to figure out what you believe about some of these debated issues.
And he said, you know, you know what? You, you wanna know what you’re gonna believe. You wanna know what you believe about this topic. You’ll find out when you get a job. [00:10:00] And I was like, that is so, that’s good. That is so true. Right? Because some of these debated issues, it’s like, you know, I interviewed at a church one time that was that w that practiced infant baptism and they were like, Hey, how’s this gonna work, dude?
You know? And I said, look, I’m gonna give you a two page paper at the beginning that explains my view on believers baptism, and then I will shut up. If, if this is the right fit for me and God calls me to this church, cool. That is not a matter I’m gonna divide over. All I ask is that you don’t ask me to baptize babies.
That’s all. That’s all
[00:10:31] Clay: that, that is such sound advice too. In other words, like relax, right, right. It’s gonna be okay. You’re gonna get in a job, you’re gonna meet people, you’re gonna see their ministry. There’s a lot of different ways to skin a cat. Hold your theological belief strongly. Right. But also hold the ones that are peripherally.
Hold them or peripheral hold them loosely.
[00:10:49] Phil: I’m gonna spend eternity with a lot of people I disagree with theologically.
[00:10:53] Clay: That’s right. That’s right. That’s right.
[00:10:54] Phil: So,
[00:10:55] Clay: yeah.
[00:10:55] Phil: Cool. It’s cool. Well, hey funny other thing, we have another thing in common, clay. [00:11:00] At the beginning of your book you referenced you said I think I’ve always wanted to be a leader.
I think it started when I became a safety patroller in fifth grade. That’s right.
[00:11:10] Clay: That’s
[00:11:10] Phil: right. We have a, we have a nerdy thing in common there ’cause I too. Was the safety patroller. And I don’t know about you Clay, but my family makes fun of me mercilessly about it to this day. They think it’s the lamest, nerdiest thing in the world.
Yeah. I try to explain to ’em how cool it was, and they just don’t believe me. Clay.
[00:11:27] Clay: Yeah. I mean, my family makes fun of me for a lot of things, but that one they have not grabbed a hold of that one. But you’re right, it’s not, certainly not the coolest thing to wear that yellow, bright sash. It’s like
[00:11:38] Phil: bragging about being the hall monitor, right?
Like you’re,
[00:11:40] Clay: yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
But yeah, that was I, I was thinking back, I was trying to prove this or I was trying to use some examples to validate this myth that I know that I believe, which is you gotta be in charge in order to lead. Right? And so I was tracing it back through my own childhood going, mm.
I have all these experiences where I was [00:12:00] trying to, I mean, running for, I, I was always running for office. Mm-hmm. In like middle school, high school, college even. Whether it’s running for office safety patrol, I was, I, I didn’t play a ton on our baseball team, but I was captain of the baseball team. And I, looking back, those were all.
I use them as evidence of the, the lie. The lie that says I gotta be the boss in order to lead. Mm-hmm. ’cause that was me trying to go, oh, well if I’m gonna lead, I better go get a title. But obviously that the, the essence of that book is, which I think is, you know, hopefully it’s great for. Executive pastors people in the 12th chair or the second chair,
[00:12:36] Phil: right,
[00:12:37] Clay: that you don’t have to have a title, you don’t have to have the authority in order to lead.
And I still deeply believe that. And now that’s really become, I, when I, when I wrote the book, I had no idea this would turn into a career, but it’s really turned into a career for me.
[00:12:48] Phil: Yeah. Yeah. And so the book is how to Lead when You’re Not in Charge. And the subtitle is Leveraging Influence When You Lack.
Authority. And you know, I’ve been [00:13:00] recommending this book to pastors that I coach for a number of years. It’s you know, it’s in my bibliography list at the back of defining the executive pastor role as one of the books that I tell second chair leaders to. To get on their shelf and give it a good read, super practical book, very accessible.
So thanks for, for writing that. I know how much work it is to kind of just take all these random ideas you’ve got floating around in your brain and take the time to distill it down into a couple hundred pages and get it out there. So. So good for you on, on doing that. As, as you know, our podcast is really focused on second chair leaders, executive pastors directors.
I don’t really care what the title is. And as you referenced, you’ve had a lot of titles over the years. You know, your role. At North Point was sort of the, what, what I will often think of as the localized second chair role. Mm-hmm. A lot of large multi-campus churches will have somebody in that second chair role at each campus.
Sometimes they’re called campus pastors, [00:14:00] sometimes they’re called associates. Sometimes they’re called XP at that campus lead. Some churches call them lead pastor. Right. Yeah. So I think for a little while you actually carried the title of lead pastor at North Point, right?
[00:14:11] Clay: Yeah. The way, the way we, bumped into that is when I think we North Point, I, I was in student ministry at this time working at North Point, but we got into multi-site in maybe like 2004, 2003. So it was pretty early in the multi-site thing. So there wasn’t a, a playbook, necessarily blueprint for what you do, but a precedent.
Yes. So they, they called the leader of the campus. They called the person, the campus director.
[00:14:39] Phil: Hmm.
[00:14:39] Clay: And that was. That became a confusing title because people thought you’re like the facilities person of a school or something.
[00:14:49] Phil: Right, right. ‘
[00:14:49] Clay: cause you’re the director of the case, I dunno. Like,
[00:14:52] Phil: yeah,
[00:14:52] Clay: yeah, exactly.
So then it moved to campus pastor, and then they we just eventually titled it Lead Pastor. And, and, and I [00:15:00] think that honestly the, the, the. Evolution of the title was really to try to give the The job more weight. Right. To try to give the job more authority, like you said, localize really trying to communicate that, hey, at this location, this is the person that is, you know where the buck stops, right?
Your leader. Yeah. Yeah. And, but that, that, obviously that creates tension, that creates confusion in internally for any leader because I mean, I would sit down and I’d be complaining about stuff to friends that don’t really know multi-site, church world, and they’d be like, well, what do you wanna do? I’m like, well, I want to be, I want to lead a church one day.
You know? And they’re like. Are, are you not doing that? Aren’t you? Isn’t that your title? Exactly. And I’m like okay, I hear you. But it’s just, it’s different. It’s not, it’s not as it seems. But and, and anyone who is, whether no matter your role. I mean, until you’re the CEO until you’re the own really, until you’re the owner of the business, I guess.
But even then, it’s still probably a [00:16:00] myth. There’s some of it that’s a myth, but yeah, you just you just will, will constantly bump into that tension that I, oh, I feel, I feel like if I’m gonna really lead, like I, God has put it in me to lead. I just gotta get more and more authority or more.
[00:16:12] Phil: Right.
[00:16:12] Clay: More power, more title. It never
[00:16:14] Phil: ends. Yeah. I’m a firm believer that titles at least in the church world titles really their primary purpose is for your congregation. Like I, true. I want, I want’s a point. The average congregant when, you know, they
[00:16:27] Clay: have some clarity,
[00:16:27] Phil: they, you know, they’re trying to figure something out.
They’ve got a question. Mm-hmm. What do they do? Mm-hmm. They go on the website.
[00:16:33] Clay: Yeah.
[00:16:33] Phil: They look at the staff list. Especially in a larger church, right? Yeah. And you go. Who am I supposed to talk to? You know, like Good point. I see a guy on stage, maybe it’s a video of a guy on another stage. Yep. There’s a worship leader, but he seems to just play guitar, so I’m not sure what he does.
Who do I talk to? Right. And the title is, is there to Help. That’s what it is. Yeah. Which also, hopefully there’s an email address somebody can click on so they don’t have to, [00:17:00] you know, be an idiot trying to chase down their pastor, you know? Yeah. So, anyway, that’s a, that’s a yeah, a pain point for me.
[00:17:08] Clay: Yeah, I agree.
[00:17:09] Phil: You, in your book, you you talked a lot about the kind of the concept of the authority to lead, you know, versus the opportunity to lead. Unpack that a little bit more.
[00:17:20] Clay: Yeah. Well, any this, I mean, everybody’s gonna resonate with this or everybody, you, you people, you, you don’t need me to explain it, probably for you to resonate with it because you get it.
The way I see it, I guess the, now these days I see it most commonly I’ll go when I sit down with a company to, you know, the most common thing I do. On the, on the corporate side is a, a company will have like a, a day off site and they’re like, Hey, we’re talking mission, vision, strategy, whatever throughout the day.
Mm-hmm. But we need somebody to come in and make some kind of investment in our people. And so they’ll say, but we really want you to get to know us. And so I’ll say, okay, well tell me what’s working. Tell me what’s not working. Right. They’ll, you know, make a list. Well, here things are going well, here are things that not, are not going well.
And [00:18:00] oftentimes it’s something like, you know, the sales team and the operations team are not getting along. Right. Or something like that. Okay, well what are you doing about that? Oh, well we can’t really do anything about that. Why can’t you do anything about that? Well, because they don’t report up to me, that’s a real common experience.
Right? Yeah. And in, in the church world might be, I have no
[00:18:18] Phil: authority.
[00:18:19] Clay: Exactly. Yeah, it might be. Oh well how was your guest services experience? Well, it’s not great. Funny you should mention that. You know, we really wish it would change. Why don’t you do anything about it? Well, because I work in operations or because I work in facilities or because I work in student ministry and I don’t have any control over that.
And yeah, from a organ, back to your point about, you know, titles create clarity for the congregation, it also creates clarity of. Responsibility. Right? Who’s responsible for what? And so now I think it’s just in all of us to see that or to feel that and go, yeah, I wish kids’ ministry were different, but I just that’s not my department, that’s not my team.
As if we just throw up our hands and go, well, if I [00:19:00] don’t have the title, and then you get to be an executive pastor, right? Where I, I would assume a lot of people listening to this are maybe you got a senior pastor, but you’re in charge of the staff perhaps, and. You think, oh, well now I can do all those things that I used to always excuse myself for not being able to do because I didn’t have the power or authority.
But then you find that it’s just not that easy. And maybe you have a senior pastor that goes, Hey, I, I hear that you wanna change some things in student ministry, but. Daniel is the elder, you know, kid and we love him. Right, right. And yeah, he is rough around the edges, but he’s, you can’t, don’t get him mess with his stuff.
Right. You can’t kick him out. Yeah. Right. So then you’re going, oh, well there we go. I still don’t have the power to be able to do all that I wanna do. So, yeah, it just, I found the myth never that if you believe that lie, it’s just gonna, it’s gonna keep you from opportunities, it’s gonna keep you from being able to really stretch and experience the kind of, the kind of leadership that God, I believe God wants us to experience, which is ultimately, you know, an, an, an [00:20:00] influence based sense of leadership.
[00:20:03] Phil: Yeah, that’s good. You know, I, it’s, it’s that concept you talked about of influence always outpaces authority, right? Yeah. Authority.
[00:20:12] Clay: Yeah.
[00:20:12] Phil: And that’s sort of, you know, in, in many ways the, kind of the, the focus of your book. Talk a little bit about that, that, that idea of influence versus versus authority.
[00:20:22] Clay: Yeah. Well, let’s take, you know, you, you see something that you think needs to change. One, one of my favorite job descriptions they ever gave me at NorthPoint was they said, Hey, you’re responsible for everything that happens at this, or you’re accountable.
You’re not responsible. You’re accountable for everything that happens at this campus,
[00:20:39] Phil: right.
[00:20:40] Clay: At this location, we want you to feel proud of it. And if you don’t feel proud of it,
[00:20:45] Phil: change it.
[00:20:45] Clay: Do. Yeah, change it. Do something about it, right?
[00:20:48] Phil: It’s good,
[00:20:48] Clay: but naturally you know, we had this matrix org chart, so. I would go to student, our student pastor and go, Hey, I heard this sermon.
I think this is actually the illustration that I use. It’s not [00:21:00] an illustration, it’s a real life experience where Andy Stanley had heard about some sermon or he heard a sermon that was being preached at the campus. I was leading in student ministry. And he calls me and says, Hey, what are you doing?
Are you, are you okay with this? And I was like, no, I’m not okay with it, but I can’t do anything about it because, and he is like, what? Doesn’t the student pastor report to you? Well, he does, but he’s not responsible for the curriculum. The, the, the, the central team is. Giving him the, they’re supporting him by providing him that curriculum and it’s their fault.
And I found myself blaming. Right, right, right. That, oh, if they would write better curriculum, we would be able to preach better sermons. Yeah. And I just smelled myself, you know, this is kind of a gross, a way to explain it, but you know, one of those moments where you’re like, you’ve been smelling something all day, and you’re like, what is this?
And then you realize like,
oh,
[00:21:52] Phil: it’s
[00:21:52] Clay: me. Oh. I stepped in it, right? Like it’s me, right? So it was a real like moment of sobriety for me to [00:22:00] realize, oh look, look at this. I’m blaming, as opposed to what? What opportunity did I have? The opportunity I had was to. Go leverage influence. I that, that subtitle of the book.
I appreciate you reading it. I didn’t write that the publisher wrote that, but leveraging influence when you lack authority. Right. I lacked the authority to just go tell them, get the curriculum better or else. Right. I didn’t have the authority to just do that. I had to go build a relationship and I had to leverage that relationship.
Yeah. And talk through it. And this maybe going with this could take a look. What do we can do? Could we take a look at it? How do you feel about Yeah. All those.
[00:22:37] Phil: I
[00:22:37] Clay: wonder if there’s an
[00:22:38] Phil: opportunity too,
[00:22:39] Clay: right. Would it surprise you to know that we think it sucks, right? All that mitigated stuff. All
[00:22:45] Phil: speech, right?
The, the
[00:22:46] Clay: mitigated speech,
[00:22:46] Phil: right.
[00:22:47] Clay: Which takes so much longer. Oh, it’s so
[00:22:49] Phil: much more. Yeah.
[00:22:51] Clay: But it is the way I, I had a, this company I spoke at, at the end of last year, they build Amazon data centers or [00:23:00] Amazon warehouses and distribution centers and big construction company, couple billion dollar company.
And I was asking the guy, when I was talking to him about the event, I was like, how, how did you find me? And he is like, oh, somebody on our team referenced your book. And I thought maybe it’d be good for our event, whatever. And, I said I said, oh, that’s great. I don’t have a ton of construction experience.
And he goes, well, you wrote the manual on how to lead a construction site. And I was like, what? No, I did not. I wrote this for pastors, right? Like, surely this is not relevant in the construction world, but. The reason why I say that as I’ve got to know them better is because the person that works for that company, you got these men.
Men and most mostly men, but some women, but mostly men who they’ve been, you know, they’ve been an electrician for 40 years, right? And they work for the contractor. Who you have hired. You can’t just fire the person, but you gotta learn how to ingratiate yourself. Yeah. And build a relationship and talk to that electrician about why [00:24:00] he wired it the way he did.
And would he consider ripping it all out and doing it over again, because that’s not exactly gonna work when we end up. Putting the drywall up or I’m making up an
[00:24:10] Phil: No, I
[00:24:10] Clay: get it. Example. ’cause I don’t really understand construction, but it, it it’s everywhere. It’s not just in the church. It’s everywhere.
And you and I are kind of joking about all that you gotta do to go get them to reevaluate the curriculum, but that is the skill.
[00:24:23] Phil: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:23] Clay: That is what leadership is. Right. And it is exhausting.
[00:24:27] Phil: Yep.
[00:24:27] Clay: And it is. Tricky and it takes emotional intelligence and
[00:24:31] Phil: Yep.
[00:24:32] Clay: Maybe, perhaps even some artificial intelligence, but it takes a lot of, it takes a lot of skill to do it and that’s what learning how to cultivate influence really is all about, it’s a skill that is not just in ministry.
It’s everywhere.
[00:24:44] Phil: Yeah. It’s so good. I love that. You know, and what’s interesting is that sometimes even in the midst of. Really leveraging the influence that you’re building and creating those relationships and all of that. Sometimes you actually are just stuck, right? Like, [00:25:00] like you definitely, you, you hit these walls where you’re like,
[00:25:02] Clay: definitely
[00:25:03] Phil: my, my scope of influence will not go beyond this area, right?
Yep. And so one of the things you talked about in the book. Which I loved, and it reminded me of something that one of my college professors used to say. You talked about the pocket of greatness, creating a pocket of greatness.
[00:25:18] Clay: Yeah.
[00:25:18] Phil: Elsewhere in the, I think a few pages later, you call it a, a Oasis of excellence.
An oasis of excellence. Of excellence. Right. OAS of one of my professors Jay Desco in Bible college used to talk about creating an island of success. You know, oh, there you go. Right. Just again, it’s just that idea of like, you’re, you know. You can only do this much, but within this, right. So yeah, explain that a little bit more.
How did you experience that? You know, give some examples of that.
[00:25:45] Clay: Well, you, yeah. I love the way you put that. I’ve never had anybody tee that up, so, insightfully that, yeah, you do get to a point where you’re like, I. You know, the, she, she’s just obstinate or he, he just that that’s not gonna change.
Right.
[00:25:59] Phil: Right. [00:26:00]
[00:26:00] Clay: So then what do you do with all that energy? You know, you can get frustrated, you can go, oh, well I’m gonna, you know, take, I’m taking my talents to South Beach and I’m gonna do something different. Right? Sure. Go for it. But if you run from it, you’re gonna be always running from it. That eventually you gotta go, all right, well, where could I channel or harness that energy and the, the best place to start?
And then the, the interest I I is, is creating what, what am I most in charge of? I’m not in charge of all that I wanna be in charge of, what am I most in charge of? Well, can I start there? What’s, interestingly, I not only is it sometimes your only option, but it is also the place you have to start when it comes to cultivating influence, right?
So the I give four behaviors, lead yourself, choose positivity. Think critically and reject passivity. This is also the, the greatest opportunity to create a pocket of greatness or an oasis of excellence or an island of success is with this little organization that you’ve been given to run. Right, right.
Which is you, right? Yep. You are [00:27:00] ultimately there’s always work to be done there, and so if you get frustrated at, oh, my boss wants me to figure out how to help influence the. You know, the facilities team on how we set up for this event, but I don’t have the authority over them, so I can’t.
[00:27:16] Phil: Right.
[00:27:16] Clay: Well, maybe I can start by going, what am I most in charge of?
I’m most in charge of me. And then secondly, I’m most in charge of our team, and so let me make sure that we’re creating the kind of culture that we want to export. Right,
[00:27:28] Phil: right.
[00:27:28] Clay: Throughout the whole organization before I go trying to change. Other things. So not only is it sometimes the only option you have, it’s also the first option when it comes to cultivating influence.
[00:27:39] Phil: Well, and I think so, you know, a lot of times you’ll, this is maybe for, for some of the other roles in the church you, you’ll find yourself in a, a church situation where you know, you don’t have control over the vision. You don’t. Have control over the lead pastor’s preaching ability, budget, budget, you know, the size of the church, you know, whatever.
But, but maybe [00:28:00] you’re the young adult pastor, right? And you’re like, well, I can make the young adult group the best thing. Ever, you know,
[00:28:08] Clay: I can create within the young adult ministry the kind of culture that I would hope that our whole church would have.
[00:28:16] Phil: Right, right,
[00:28:16] Clay: right.
[00:28:17] Phil: Yeah. I was talking to a, a pastor that you know, his, the church he was at, it was actually in the young adult role.
The church he was at was, you know, kind of, kind of jacked up, you know, there was some weird stuff going on at the top, and he was like, what do I do? Do I quit? Do I just quit? And I was like, well, are they asking you to quit? No. Do they like you? Yeah. Why don’t you just make that young adult group awesome, and then leave when you’re ready.
And he was like,
[00:28:46] Clay: great,
[00:28:46] Phil: that’s a good idea. You know? So, and he ultimately ended up planting a church, but, you know, so it’s it’s yeah. You know, well,
[00:28:52] Clay: I,
[00:28:53] Phil: go ahead,
[00:28:53] Clay: clay. This, I don’t know if this is on your list of questions, but that’s a real common question that I get, Phil, is mm-hmm. [00:29:00] That example you just gave, I mean, that is a such a common example, really important example.
Is there ever a time when I should just leave? Right, right, right. I get that question a lot. What would you say to that?
[00:29:15] Phil: Yeah, I mean, I, is
[00:29:16] Clay: there ever a time where you should just leave?
[00:29:17] Phil: I do think there is a time. I think obviously if there’s, if there’s some major theological differences Sure. Ethical or, or moral issues or Sure.
Something like really toxic, ethical issues. Right. Where you’re like, I don’t wanna be associated with this organization. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. It probably makes sense to leave. But, you know, I, I’m also just conscious, very practically of like, Hey, I gotta pay the mortgage. I gotta put food on my kids’ table, right?
And so, you know, sometimes you find yourself in that moment where you go, I’ve gotta, I’ve gotta stay long enough until I’ve got, you know, something else to, to jump to, right? It, it’s easier to get a job when you have a job. And so, sometimes you find yourself just in that really difficult position of needing to look while staying.
And, you know, I, I will, you know, I will say, look, if, if [00:30:00] you can, if you can make it work. Try to stay at least until God makes it clear that you’re done here. That’s great. Great. And I, and I think honestly, I mean, this is a spiritual matter, right? And so,
[00:30:11] Clay: yeah.
[00:30:11] Phil: There are times when, when you go, I actually don’t wanna be here, but I think God is asking me to stay.
[00:30:17] Clay: Yeah.
[00:30:17] Phil: And man, like you, you can’t fight against that. You do not wanna be on the wrong side of, of God’s. Calling on your life, right? And so, you gotta be really careful with that one and make sure that you’re doing what you feel God’s asked you to do. So yeah,
[00:30:32] Clay: I have this audio resource. I’m not trying to just promote a resource.
No, go for it. So for the sake of. Promoting a resource, but I called it should I stay or should I go? Mm. And I think I charged $5 for it. It might even be free. I dunno, it was free for a while, but it might be $5 now. I’m not sure. But either way it’s not it’s cheap, that expensive, but it’s cheap. But it’s a four hour audio download where I was trying to answer the question.
It was right. I did it right when I resigned. Just thinking, okay, what’s, what’s something I could help people with immediately? And I just knew, well. [00:31:00] I, there’s maybe other people walking through what I just walked through, which is how do you know when it’s time? And I think that’s such an important question of how do you know when it’s time?
I love your, I love your answer of there are times when you go, Hey, this is where God is leading me, so I’m staying, or God’s not done with me. I would just encourage anyone who’s wrestling with that. Is there more for you to learn? Mm-hmm. Is there something else? I mean, God does his best work in our hardest seasons.
We all know that. Right? Right. It’s why, it’s why David said in Psalm 23, I even though I walked through the valley of the shadow of death, El Fi, no evil. I’m trying to get to the other side, but I gotta walk through this valley that that is the way God has wired the world for whatever reason. I hate that it is, but it is that it’s in those seasons of difficulty that we learn.
How to trust him, how to depend on him, and sometimes those constraints create our best work. Hmm. Where we learn how to do some of our. Our, the, some of the best ministry we’ve ever done [00:32:00] because we had to fight against something. Right? That’s right. And good news, you know, throughout the Old Testament, fortunately no one ever had to figure out, or the New Testament how to work under a difficult boss.
Right. I mean, they always worked under just the most wonderful kings and rulers and No, I mean, all of them did, right? All of them were like. Oh, I guess God can’t do anything now because nebuchadnezzar’s a moron, right? No. They were like, all right, well this is the constraints. Here’s how I’m, here’s how I’m confined.
What, what then could God still do?
[00:32:32] Phil: Yeah.
[00:32:32] Clay: And turns out the answer is a lot. Yep. That he could still do. That’s right. So I, I do think there are times to leave, but make sure you’ve learned everything you can learn. Make sure you’ve grown as much as you can grow, because these are some of the best seasons for that.
Not easy, but some of the best.
[00:32:49] Phil: So, I shifting gears here a little bit you had a whole chapter on a topic that I feel like is sort of a taboo subject in church leadership. You had a whole chapter on the [00:33:00] idea of ambition in Oh, yeah. In ministry. And I, I just, I loved seeing that because it’s not really dealt with in a healthy manner usually, and it’s sort of.
Like, oh, well, don’t have, don’t have ambition. That’s evil. That’s, you know, that’s not godly character. You shouldn’t, but you did it. You just did a great job with like, well, what does it look like to have good, healthy, godly ambitions? So, unpack that a little bit. And, you know, in the midst of that, I would even say, I felt like as I read that chapter, that I thought, okay, this, this has come from some, you know, maybe some internal wrestling along the way.
So share what, maybe if you’re, if you’re willing to share a little bit of that. So.
[00:33:38] Clay: Yeah. Oh, of course. You know, because you, you, you think, oh, I, if I were in charge, that’s the way I’d do it. And then you go, oh no. Am I, am I supposed to think that doesn’t feel very Christian, right, right. To want my boss’s job.
I always think about that. This is a long time ago, but there was this Cam Newton, you know, cam Newton’s like, like he was the quarterback for the Panthers. One that, or went, did he win the super? He went to the Super Bowl. But anyway, there [00:34:00] was this commercial with this he’s in the. He’s in the front yard doing something and this little kid is just like winding his arm and Cam Newton’s like, what are you doing?
He is like, I’m coming for your job. It was just really, it was very cute. I don’t know. It was really, but I always think about that. Whenever I think about that concept of everybody has had the thought. I could do my boss’s job better than me. Now, the executive pastor role is a little unique because the skillset is so different.
The area that you’re playing in is usually so different that it’s pretty often, I feel like it’s one of the more it’s one of the areas of work where the person has solidified. I’m comfortable being in this seat. I don’t want to be a senior pastor. Right? So I would say maybe there’s less of that in this group of people than most groups of people.
But nonetheless, everybody knows what that feels like to go, I think I could do my boss’s job better, or I want my boss’s job. Or I’ve got, you know, is that okay to want to do that? But particularly in the ministry world where. When you’re in seminary, you’re kind of on this path to [00:35:00] become a, a pastor of a, of a congregation one day, perhaps.
So, I was, yes, wrestling through all of that, trying to figure out what’s guilty, what’s not. So, you know, that’s one of the great things about writing is that you make yourself really figure out, what do I really believe about this? So I started looking up every term. You know, the, the term is selfish ambition, which Paul uses over and over and over, right?
Like, do not have selfish ambition, but. There is something healthy about ambition. There’s something healthy. I, I use that creation mandate, the, you know, God put it in us to go and create order to go and make it better to go and put it in a position where it could flourish, right? I mean, that’s the, it’s what is it?
Be fruitful and then. The second one is to go subdue the earth.
[00:35:46] Phil: Yeah.
[00:35:47] Clay: Go bring order to it. And that word, the Hebrew word is the word kibosh. So I do, I I did a lot of work on trying to figure out
[00:35:54] Phil: right. I,
[00:35:55] Clay: is that the same? As that Yiddish term, you know, [00:36:00] put the kibosh on something.
[00:36:01] Phil: Yeah, yeah.
[00:36:02] Clay: I met with, I actually met with a Jewish rabbi about it, and he was like, ah, it’s, it’s a little different.
He was like, but good news, there’s a lot of flexibility within the Hebrew language that you’re welcome to make that argument. So I was like, okay. That’s funny because the, the, the idea or the, the concept that I try to give is. If your ambi what, what is ambition in a, in its purest sense, it’s, I feel like God has put it in me to go make something, to go exercise the creation mandate.
Is that wrong? Of course it’s not wrong. If the end goal is the, the glory of God or to help somebody, sure it’s healthy. What’s wrong is I want to be in charge ’cause I wanna be the boss. And so I have found that that. Creation mandate has become perverted, that we have twisted it and said, don’t just go make it better.
Go get in charge of it and exercise your dominion, your power over it. That’s not the point of it. The point is not so that I could go have power and be in charge. The point of it is to make it better. So, yeah, there’s a, there’s a lot to wrestle [00:37:00] with there, but I would just say to anybody who has ambition.
You gotta constantly put it before God. You gotta constantly submit it before the Lord, Hey, is this of you or is this me wanting to have a bigger Twitter handle? Right. Because if it is just that, then yeah, not healthy. But if it is, no, I genuinely, I want to help people. And if that’s the case, man. Go for it,
[00:37:26] Phil: right?
Yeah.
[00:37:26] Clay: GATA as they say in the football culture.
[00:37:29] Phil: I think, you know, one of the one of the pastors I, I worked with for a num number of years ed Marcel would always talk about, you know, for all of these things. For us, it’s kinda like a, a coin, right? You’ve got one side of the coin. Yeah. Is this super positive attribute?
That is good and godly and right. And it’s awesome. But man, you just flip that coin over and you’ve got the shadow side of it where it’s dark and evil and gross, you know? Yep. And we just have to always be aware that there’s [00:38:00] always, always a shadow side, right? That’s right. And we’re kind of fighting against that casting it out in name and, and just saying, I’m not, I’m not gonna submit to that.
Right.
[00:38:08] Clay: Yeah. And obviously not just, you know, you alone in front of God, but this is where you gotta have trusted. Friends that love you enough to say, Hey, is that really your motive? Like, is that really what you want to be about? But yeah, it takes, that’s where it takes a village for sure.
[00:38:22] Phil: Mm-hmm. That’s good.
You know, I think part of what happens when you, when you are a person who aspires to do great things for God, I think of oftentimes that person is attracted to the executive pastor role because there is a, a, a certain amount of, you know, influence that you’re able to build. Sure. When you are kind of the second in command, you know, outside of that, that lead leader.
But part of what that then creates in our job descriptions or kind of the reason why we get hired in a particular church environment or nonprofit environment is that there’s a real perceived need for [00:39:00] change. There’s a perceived need for
[00:39:01] Clay: Yeah.
[00:39:02] Phil: Fixing things, right? Sure. And so you oftentimes the XP is brought in.
As kind of the, the change agent, right? Yep. And they have the ambition to figure it out and figure out what needs to change and, and make those changes. But I love what you talked about in the book you said any change to the present system will be perceived as a criticism of past leadership. So what do you do when you’re expressly hired as the change agent?
It, you know, it puts you in a really difficult position. You know, have you experienced that?
[00:39:36] Clay: Yeah. Yes, I have. I mean, there was a one of the campuses that I stepped into as the lead pastor, campus pastor, campus director, whatever the title. I, yeah, it was more of a change kind of situation. But I really relied on that 90 days book, what is it?
90, oh first, 90 Days, that Harvard Business Review book that’s been around forever. They do a really great job of talking about I think it’s the acronym star. I can’t remember now what each [00:40:00] letter stands for, but it’s a, it’s a framework to evaluate what you’re stepping into. Stepping into is such a.
Has some quite some connotation to it because in some ways you are stepping into it, right? But what are you, what, what is the environment you’re stepping into? Is it a turnaround? Is it a disaster? Is it, things are going pretty well? We just need some refinement? I think getting cl I would start with clarity, right?
I would start by getting clarity. The most, to me, the most damage that’s done is when. Someone gets set up for failure because a boss or an elder group of elders says, oh, this is a massive change job,
[00:40:40] Phil: right?
[00:40:40] Clay: But no one else knows it.
[00:40:42] Phil: We’re not gonna support you in it.
[00:40:44] Clay: Exactly.
[00:40:45] Phil: Yeah.
[00:40:45] Clay: So what I mean, that’s like a kamikaze, like a Japanese, the sacrificial fighter pilot.
Exactly. Like just fly yourself into that mound over there. Would you and I hope you enjoy it along the way, so I, and, and, and then you might even diagnose that if, if, is that the case right? [00:41:00]
[00:41:00] Phil: Yeah.
[00:41:00] Clay: If that’s the case, then that’s gonna, that should affect the way you approach it. If you are being asked to change something, but no one thinks it needs to change you, that is a category, right?
That should inform if, if it’s a, Hey, I’m changing this and everybody knows it, or I’m changing it. Or, or I kind of have some thoughts on how it should change, but even my bosses don’t agree. Right? Again, I would say step one is awareness. Step one is identifying what is the situation that you’re walking into, and then let your plan for how you do it, be formed by that.
It, you know, we’ve all seen the situation where. What are the tendencies? You either wait too long and you’re too passive or you’re too aggressive and you come in bulling, the China shop, just changing everything. And that’s right. You, you know, make everybody mad and go, whoa, whoa, whoa. I have a, a executive pastor that I’ve done some work with and he was kind of set up in that way where the senior pastor said, oh, this is what I want you to manage.
And oh, by the way, here’s the stuff that needs to change. But nobody else knew [00:42:00] it. And he came in just guns blazing and. Just made everybody mad and then everybody’s, you know, doing the end around where they’re going to the senior pastor going, right. Triangulating a disaster. Yep. Exactly. So, yeah, I would just, I’ll, I’ll stop there and say, identify what kind of situation you’re in and then let your plan be informed by.
The the nature of the environment or the nature of the change that you’re stepping into. But yes, there’s a whole I, I, I, after I wrote about those four behaviors, lead me, choose positivity, think critically, reject passivity. I, I had that epiphany of, oh my gosh, somebody might go. Oh boy. I’m gonna have to really have a challenging conversation.
How do I do that really well? Yeah, that’s really where that came from.
[00:42:40] Phil: That’s good. Good. Well, hey, we’ll, we’ll, we’ll land a plane here. We’re coming out of, out of time here. You worked with obviously a guy that a lot of people in the ministry leadership world know you worked with Andy Stanley for a long time and, I think whenever you’re working with somebody who is so well known in the leadership [00:43:00] world, right? Like that’s probably one of those names that amongst pastors is sort of a household name, right? Mm-hmm. People have read his books, they’ve listened to your stuff. Church famous. Yeah, he’s church famous.
That’s a good way to say it. Yeah. And so, you know, I, I wonder what was that like for you? To be sort of, I, I will often talk about the second chair role as sort of choosing the shadow and of course when somebody is as well known as, say, Andy Stanley is, it becomes a bigger shadow, you know? What was that like for you?
Working with a guy who was so, so well known in the leadership community?
[00:43:29] Clay: I think it pushed me to one of the, the, I think chapter two of leading when you’re not in Charge is really all about identity.
[00:43:35] Phil: Mm-hmm.
[00:43:35] Clay: And I think that’s why that became such a passion point for me was because I, work. Yeah.
Working with someone with a big shadow or that casts a big shadow. It definitely. Forces you in a way to really figure out who am I
[00:43:51] Phil: right?
[00:43:51] Clay: And, and, and if you don’t have that clear, it just makes things really difficult. So it, you know, I, I’ve got so many great [00:44:00] stories that make me laugh still. I mean, there was somebody who, I mean, this was a common thing where somebody I would preach and somebody would show up and they would just assume I was Andy Stanley because I was the one preaching.
[00:44:11] Phil: That’s
[00:44:11] Clay: funny. And so they would, you know, they’d say, you know, we sat there during the, we’re from Toledo and we came all the way to Atlanta.
’cause we wanted to hear you preach forever and we loved your dad’s preaching. And we’re just so excited to get to hear you. And as we sat there today, we realized. We’ve never actually seen you in person. We always listen to the podcast. So it’s so fun to get to see you in person. And you know, I’m like listening to all this being like, oh my gosh.
And in this case, this person had their camera out. Like they were ready to take a selfie, you know?
[00:44:38] Phil: Right.
[00:44:38] Clay: And I finally was like, Hey I am not who you think that I am. Like, I think you think that I’m Andy Stanley, I am not. And of course, you know, I just watch them slowly put their phone in their pocket and walk away.
Right.
[00:44:52] Phil: Yeah. That, that’s a big that’s a big booster to your ego there. Right.
[00:44:55] Clay: Yeah. Or I mean, I was, you know, yeah. When somebody travels from wherever [00:45:00] it feels like they’re, you know, kind of. You know, scaling or approaching Mecca to come see this person that they’ve listened to, and then they see, you know, he’s not there preaching, it’s you.
Yeah. You know, that’s, that’s, it’s fun to be someone’s
[00:45:12] Phil: disappointment. Right?
[00:45:14] Clay: Exactly. And that’ll mess that if you, if you allow it to, that will mess with you.
[00:45:18] Phil: Right.
[00:45:19] Clay: He, you know, like most great leaders want you to feel strong about. Who you are and don’t, you know, don’t be willing to be willing to disagree.
I really like this scene. This is a silly scene, but from first night, Richard Ge, this is like from the nineties, but Lance a lot’s kind of becoming, he’s coming into his own in this big Giants in the town center. Jousting with people and no one can handle this guy. He’s huge. Lancelot kind of pulls up and is like, I’ll give it a shot.
And sure enough, like within 30 seconds, Lancelot now has his sword and the giant sword and the crowd is just kind of like oohing and I being like, who is this new flavor of the month? And the giant was [00:46:00] really disappointed and kind of. Lays in the shadows and weights and comes and says, Hey, can you teach me how you did what you just did?
[00:46:07] Phil: Hmm?
[00:46:07] Clay: And he says, oh, well, three things. One, you have to study your opponent. He goes, cool, I can do that too. You have to know when to strike. He’s like, cool, I can do that. And then number three, he goes, you cannot care whether you live or whether you die.
[00:46:22] Phil: Mm.
[00:46:22] Clay: And the giant’s like, oh no, I don’t know that I can do that.
You know, but I feel like the o to have. To be able to work with any senior pastor, but let alone one that you know, has a big following or has a big name. You cannot care whether you live or die. You really have to trust that God is the one that controls your destiny. God’s the one that controls your, the future of your life.
You, you gotta be able to have that solidified to be able to work in an environment like that. So that was not easy for me, but that was one of the greatest lessons that working for somebody like that. It certainly taught me that lesson over and over and over and over again.
[00:46:57] Phil: That’s good. Well, hey we’re gonna finish there.
[00:47:00] What where do you wanna send us what do you want to, this is your chance to promote whatever you wanna promote. Tell us about your books, your, your podcast, your website, whatever you wanna do. I,
[00:47:08] Clay: I, whatever everybody knows how to find, if you want, if there’s anything that I could do to help anybody, I’d be happy to do it.
My email, it’s Clay dot scroggins@gmail.com would be an honor to get to help any, you know, this is, I feel like my purpose on Earth is to serve men and women, like the people listening to your podcast, Phil, which is again, why this is an easy Yes. Would just say thank you. I’d say thank you to you, but I would also say to every person that’s in a role that you’re in, that would cause you to bump into a a, a podcast like this.
Thank you for the work that you’re doing. I know it feels behind the scenes maybe, and you might not, you’re certainly not getting paid enough and there’s probably not near enough accolades or earthly treasure to be able to, reward you for doing what you’re doing. But it deeply matters. I mean, we need great churches.
And great churches are led by men and women who are submitted to God saying, Hey, I’m, I’m trusting you and trying to serve you, and trying to do the best that I can [00:48:00] do in the role that I’m in. So I just, you know, can’t thank you enough. Can’t thank the people listening enough for the work that they do.
It’s, it’s an honor to get to be a part of this little community.
[00:48:09] Phil: Oh, thanks Clay. That’s a great place to end and I’ll tell all of our listeners for those that are in that second share role, if you haven’t already read it. Read How to Lead when You’re Not in Charge by Clay Scroggins. Clay, thanks for being on the show.
[00:48:22] Clay: Yeah, thanks, Phil.
[00:48:27] Tyler: Well, Phil, you’re right. I’m bummed that I miss being involved in that interview, but at least I got to listen alongside with everyone else. Now, I haven’t read that book yet, but after listening, I’m definitely gonna pick that one up and read it.
[00:48:38] Phil: Yeah, it’s good stuff
[00:48:39] Tyler: for sure. Well, before we sign off, you’re actually speaking at a conference pretty soon, right?
[00:48:43] Phil: Yeah I’m speaking at the XP Summit in Dallas, Texas in May. And I think they still have room. If you wanna sign up to go@xpsummit.org. And if you are going, if you shoot me an email, phil@backstagepastors.org. [00:49:00] I would love to be able to try to connect with you while you’re there for that. And I’m trying to pull together a little bit of just a, you know, dinner or drinks or something during the event.
And so if I know that you’re coming, then I will be sure to invite you to that. And you could come and ask me if you’re there. You can come and ask me for a backstage pastor’s pin. I’ll give you some swag if you come and run into me there at the conference.
[00:49:25] Tyler: Gotta love your swag. I love it. Well, that’s our episode for this week.
So you can follow me at at Tyler Ditz, that’s D-R-E-W-I-T-Z on Instagram. You can also follow the show at Backstage Pastors and give us a review wherever you get your podcasts. Feed the algorithm on our behalf please.
[00:49:42] Phil: We need it. We need it. You can catch me at phil taylor XP on Instagram. The Backstage Pastors Podcast is brought to you by the Church Hub.
The church hub serves. Pastors, ministry leaders and their spouses through equipping and training resources. Check ’em [00:50:00] out@thechurchhub.org, and our podcast is produced by The Good Podcast Company. Our theme music is written by Seth Kay and Tyler. We’ll see you on the next show.
