In Episode 10 of Backstage Pastors™️, Phil and Tyler sit down with Becca Knudsen, Executive Pastor at Arvada Vineyard Church, to discuss her unique ministry journey, leading alongside a nationally influential lead pastor, and navigating major organizational transitions. Becca shares how an unexpected path—from Young Life leader to opera student to church administrator—ultimately led her into executive pastoral leadership.
The conversation explores the realities of serving at a church whose lead pastor, Jay Pathak, also serves as the national director of Vineyard USA. Becca reflects on the spiritual, organizational, and personal challenges that accompanied that transition, including increased responsibility, leadership development, and organizational growing pains.
She also provides an inside look at Arvada Vineyard’s decision to move away from a multi-site model and transition campuses into independent churches. Becca explains the discernment process, lessons learned, and why the church would still choose to plant churches in the future—while intentionally building toward eventual independence.
Ep 10_Becca Knudsen
[00:00:00] Phil: Welcome to the Backstage Pastors podcast. I’m your host, Phil Taylor, and my co-host is Tyler Dravis. Tyler this is episode 10. We made it.
[00:00:20] Tyler: Episode 10, that is, is amazing, and we interviewed someone the other day who’s done over 800 episodes. Right. So we probably should carry this little milestone without too much swagger.
[00:00:33] Phil: We hit
[00:00:33] Tyler: double digits. But I, I get ya. I, I appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah, that’s right. It matters.
[00:00:36] Phil: What are we, like, 90 episodes till we hit triple digits, right?
[00:00:40] Tyler: That’s right, that’s right. So i- it’ll be a while before the next one, but that’s all right. That’s all right. I love it. But seriously, it wa- it’s always fun getting to jump into these really good conversations with second-chair leaders.
You know, this podcast exists for executive pastors and second-chair leaders serving in the church, the nonprofit, and the para-church world, and today we’ve got a conversation with someone [00:01:00] who, in a lot of ways, kind of straddles both of those worlds at the same time.
[00:01:04] Phil: That’s right. Becca Knudsen is a g- friend of mine.
She’s the executive pastor at the Vineyard Church in Arvada, Colorado, which is kind of a suburb of Denver. And where it gets interesting is that Becca’s lead pastor, a guy by the name of Jay Pathak is also the head of the Vineyard USA movement. And it’s a movement of about 500, I think, churches in United States.
Mm. And maybe 2,500 totally kind of, you know, internationally and whatnot. And you know, what, what happens when your lead pastor is the head of something, whatever it might be, that is outside of your church everybody kind of on your staff ends up becoming- de facto leaders in some way or another in that thing.
So, you know- Mm … your worship pastor starts getting calls and [00:02:00] emails from other worship pastors in the network, and your you know, w- youth pastor is connecting with the youth pastor at the new church plant down the road. And your graphics person ends up doing graphics that get used nationally, and you end up recording in your own church’s studio for things that are being used, you know, all over the place.
And so it kind of feels like your whole church takes on that that leadership role that your lead pastor has taken on. And so it, it puts you in the spotlight more, it puts you under the microscope, and so it’s just kinda different. And so that’s kind of a role that, that Becca has as she not only is the executive pastor at her own church, but also kinda leads out, bringing together executive pastors throughout the Vineyard movement nationally.
[00:02:46] Tyler: Absolutely. Well, it was a great conversation with Becca. And Phil, speaking of the Vineyard movement, you’re gonna be at the Vineyard conference this summer, right?
[00:02:54] Phil: That’s right. Yeah, they do their annual conference in the summer, and this year it’s gonna be at a [00:03:00] Vineyard church up in north New Jersey area, across from New York City.
And I’ll be there, I think it’s July 21 to 23. So, you know, if you are a Vineyard pastor listening I’ll see you there. And for the rest of you this, our, our session will be, I’ll be doing a session with Becca there, and our session will be kind of a lunch session. I believe it’s off-site kind of a deal during the conference.
So I think really anybody could come to it. If you happen to be in the area and you feel like coming out shoot me an email, phil@backstagepastors.org, and I’ll get you the details, and you can come, come hang out with us for lunch.
[00:03:35] Tyler: Awesome. Well, let’s get to this conversation with Becca Knutson from the Arvada Vineyard Church.
[00:03:47] Phil: Becca Knutson, you are the executive pastor at the Vineyard Church, Arvada Vineyard in Arvada, Colorado. Your church serves the greater Vineyard movement in a pretty significant way, [00:04:00] and you were most recently in the cohort that I was leading, the executive pastor cohort that met for the last few months.
We’ve gotten to know each other a lit- little bit over the last couple of years at different- Mm-hmm … vineyard events. Becca, it’s so good to have you on the Backstage Pastors podcast today.
[00:04:13] Becca: Yeah, it’s good to be here.
[00:04:15] Phil: Well, you know, your ministry journey you’ve shared a little bit of that with me in different times, but I’d love for you to share just kind of a little bit of your ministry journey with our listeners and viewers and, and kind of bring us through the way that God has guided your life in service of him.
[00:04:31] Becca: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like mine is not very traditional. I was not a little girl thinking I would be a pastor growing up. But I essentially… I, I actually did Young Life when I was in high school, and I’ve always kind of been a natural leader with friends. You know, I was able to gather people, do things like that.
And so, in high school I helped start Young Life in my high school on accident. I didn’t wanna do it. My mom was trying to get us to start a, like a club at my [00:05:00] high school, and told me that we were gonna host it at my house, and I told her I would go stay in my room and I wouldn’t participate. But I ended up getting invited to go to another neighboring school by a senior when I was a freshman, which I could not say no to her.
And so I invited about 30 friends to go with me, ’cause I just didn’t wanna go alone. And I had no idea that I was starting a club by doing that, but that essentially made it so we could start a club in my high school, because I brought enough kids to the other club that the leaders- Wow … they had assigned to my school.
They were like, “Hey,” you know, they’re like meeting this young girl at Taco Bell after and talking to me like, “We could do this at your house if you like this,” you know? And, and I really did. I, I really loved Young Life, and so it was, it was a really fun, obviously, experience to be able to see a bunch of friends come to know Jesus, and yeah, just, I don’t know, it was just really natural for me to gather, to, you know, hang out, have fun, and, and learning how to- That’s cool
disciple people, you know, when you’re a senior discipling freshmen and things like that. So, I never thought of doing ministry, but I did have, like at an early age, some, you know, experience of doing, you [00:06:00] know, ministry-type things. And then I led Young Life all through college. I got involved in the Vineyard in college, and really, the Vineyard was a very healing place for me.
I, I didn’t love church. Mm … and that’s why I kinda did Young Life, and felt like when I was in my senior year of high school when I would read the New Testament, you know, I would… I didn’t know at the time, ’cause I wasn’t a Vineyard girl then, but I think the Lord was speaking to me, ’cause I would kinda hear this, this thought would come through my mind of, “You can’t love me if you don’t love my church.”
And so, I started going to the Vineyard my freshman year of college, and really fell back in love with the church, and, and got a lot of my church wounds from my early childhood healed up in the Vineyard. Yeah, did the V- was in the Vineyard, leading Young Life, got married, and then my husband and I moved to Colorado for me to go to grad school.
I actually studied classical music, so sang opera, you know, all of those kinds of things. I don’t have, like, traditional ministry training. But we started at the church that I’m at now, over 20 years ago. And- Wow. … I ended [00:07:00] up our senior pastor, Jay, I was in a small group with him, and he said, “You seem kind of organized,” ’cause he heard me talk about meal planning.
And I was kind of offended, ’cause I’m like, “I’m an artist. You know, I- … I sing. Like, what are you talking about?” You know. But I needed a part-time job, and he said, “If you wanna come work at the church, I need some help, and, you know, you can flex your hours.” And so I started working at the church in an administrative role.
And it’s kinda funny. My first day at work, there was an old-school computer, you know, like an actual desktop, like a big one, in this dark room, and he put me in front of it, and he was like, “I think the, I think the books are on there somewhere.” So I don’t know how to log in but there’s a volunteer who quit that was doing it.
I mean, we were really tiny. It was still a church plant at the time. Sure, sure. And yeah, so I, I didn’t know how… I was like, “I don’t know how to use QuickBooks. What are you talking about?” You know? So I logged in. I ended up, like, printing out bank statements and hand-balancing the book, ’cause my parents had taught me how to balance a checkbook, you know, literally with a highlighter.
[00:07:55] Phil: Right. Right.
[00:07:55] Becca: And then I, I came to him later, and I said, “You don’t actually have enough money to pay me. … I- I’m pretty sure you [00:08:00] guys have been, like, double entering, like, deposits, you know, when they would match with the bank.” So anyways yeah, I… that’s how I started in an actual, like, paid position of ministry.
Right. Right. And then,
[00:08:10] Phil: So the whole, basically the prep here if anyone’s wondering, how do I become- Mm-hmm … an executive pastor?
[00:08:15] Becca: Exactly.
[00:08:15] Phil: The answer is- You just get, you- … meal pl- meal planning, right?
[00:08:18] Becca: Yeah.
[00:08:19] Phil: Yeah. And then suddenly that’s it.
[00:08:21] Becca: Exactly. You just get into it. And yeah, so I mean, we’d only been… My husband and I had been in the church for a year, but he…
You know, Jay is only like four or five years older than us. Right. So he’s in his 20s. We’re in our 20s. And at that time, it makes me laugh looking back on it now but we were- Mm … some of the most skilled people he had because we had done Young Life and had some ministry experience. And so, you know, we’d been doing things in the church, and I think he just…
I don’t know. It, it, I ended up coming on part-time. I finished my grad program at CU Boulder, and as I was finishing, I really felt- Like, I could just serve the Lord this way. You know, I loved music. I had a dream of being a, you know, a professor and having a studio [00:09:00] and really, you know, getting to invest in students and in that, you know, really personal one-on-one way.
And yeah, I just, I felt like I think I can serve the Lord better in what I’m doing. And it, and really, it was just an administrative role at the time. I had no theology for women in ministry. I didn’t think I could be a pastor. No one told me I couldn’t, but I also didn’t have a, like, a view of that.
And so I came to Jay when I was finishing grad school and said, “Hey, I really love what I’m doing. I feel like I’m serving the church really well. If…” And I made a case. Like, I was… did this whole thing. I’m like, “If you keep me full-time, I’m doing the work of, like, three full-time people, so if you pull me on full-time, you know, it’ll be a good one for you.”
And he was so kind. He was like, “Oh, I thought you wanted to go, you know, do your music stuff. I’d love to take you on.” So he took me on and and again, I wasn’t a pastor at that time. I was, I was an administrator, and I actually became his personal assistant, and as I was his personal assistant, he was having me field a lot of pastoral things.
So, you know, sometimes y- we’d get an email in his inbox that would be, you know, absolutely atrocious, and he’d say, “I’d love for you to [00:10:00] go read up on this. Write a theological response and, you know, adult send it. Put it, you know, put it in front of me-” Sure … “before you send it.” And some of mine were scathing.
You know, I’d be like, “This is ridiculous,” you know? And so he’d have to curve some of my- … you know, spiciness. But he’d be like, “No, no, we can’t send that. But let’s learn. What did we learn from this?” You know? And then and then… And sometimes, you know, he’d pull me in on meetings ’cause he needed, like, someone there to see what was happening, and, you know, seeing how I am this, like, young leader who…
Again, I, I was leading and doing things within the life of the church, but I was getting really hands-on experience in ministry, which I think a lot of folks who go to seminary, they get a lot of the head knowledge, but they don’t get that experience where you’re, like, touching it and seeing it and experiencing it firsthand.
And so, yeah, I mean, in some ways I got trained up to be a pastor by being his personal assistant and seeing all of those things. And eventually, our board came in, I can’t even remember how long it’s been, probably over 15 years ago, and did a big restructure and made me our executive pastor because they’re like, “You’re helping Jay, you’re doing a bunch of…”
I was… [00:11:00] By that time, I was running all kinds of things in the church. You know, you just start picking up responsibility and yeah. And so I feel like my whole kind of ministry career, that sounds really simple. I did have a, like, crisis in there around, like, I need to understand, is this okay for me as a woman to lead?
And- Mm … it was actually Jay that sat me down years ago. I’ll never forget, we’re in a coffee shop, and he says, “You know, I’ve… You could be our executive pastor. The only thing that’s holding you back is you. Like-”
[00:11:25] Phil: Mm. “…
[00:11:25] Becca: why wouldn’t you do that?” And I’ll never forget saying, “Doesn’t my husband need to be over me somehow?”
I, I had no- I just, I was like, “I don’t really know, but- Sure … I’m not sure if I’m allowed to be.” And he was like, “You have to study this stuff.” And honestly, I, I remember saying, “I just don’t wanna be like some, you know, angry feminist woman who’s like trying to like make my place. I just wanna serve the Lord, and I’m happy to do it in any position.
I don’t need a title.” I didn’t really feel like a, a desire to be a pastor. So I, I feel like my kinda whole entire ministry ca- career has been a reluctancy to do it, [00:12:00] but having natural gifting, and also I just love the Lord, you know, and wanting to be obedient to him. And so out of obedience to him, you know, I went and read a million books and studied and kinda came to the conclusion, like, I think it’s okay that, that I do this.
And thankfully, my husband was in a totally different place than me. He always was very supportive, and it actually curbed a lot of our probably marital tensions once I stepped into this because I always had these gifts and would kinda pursue but then back up in some, you know, way to kinda make myself smaller.
Mm. And he’d be like, “What are you doing?” And I’d be like, “Well, you need to lead,” you know? And so it actually really helped a lot of marriage dynamics for us for me to begin to actually do ministry in a, you know, more formal capacity. But I’ve been making up for all of my you know, not going to seminary over the years.
You’re always just catching up on, on theology and reading, and I love to learn and read, so I’ve, I’ve read like a million books and, you know, h- but it’s always learning to do the practice of ministry and, and sort of the impli- or the, the application of the theology all the time, you know? So a lot of times when I’m [00:13:00] reading theological things and thinking, “Oh, duh, of course, this makes so much sense,” you know?
And I see it in a million ways versus trying to figure out how, how does this actually work and, and play out in, in the real world. So yeah, so I’ve been doing this now for over 20 years. I always tell people I got hired when I was about two, so, you know. That’s right.
[00:13:18] Tyler: Like, yeah. Well, Becca, thank you so much for sharing your story with us.
Now your church is in a pretty unique position with Jay not only serving as the lead pastor but also the national director of Vineyard for the US, and so I’d really love to hear kinda how that shaped your role. Has it added any additional complexity, maybe opened up unique opportunities as your church in the spotlight, and just kind of what’s it been like navigating that dual role since he stepped into it?
[00:13:46] Becca: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Jay has always ha- not always, I mean even as a young Pretty early on in his career he’s great communicator, a lot of people love him, you know, so he’s always kinda had his hands in things outside of our church. So that’s been a common [00:14:00] thing for us, whether it’s doing stuff with our city, whether it’s doing things with the vineyard.
You know, every year as long as I’ve worked with him, we’re always negotiating travel schedules, you know, like, “How long, how much are you gonna be gone? How much are you gonna be here?”
[00:14:10] Tyler: Right.
[00:14:11] Becca: But the national role was different. And when he was discerning that role, I remember honestly having the fear of God in me when he was asked to consider it, ’cause you…
There, there… I don’t, you know, I don’t know how we measure this, but there is such a thing as, like, spiritual authority. You know, there’s a, a weightiness to that, and I could feel that- Yeah … where you’re like, “Oh, no, there’s something coming towards us that, if I’m honest, I don’t know if I have the capacity or the, the depth of character to handle what might get thrown at us.”
Mm-hmm. And so it was really scary to me. And so he, he went into a sabbatical to discern that, and so, I had a lot of time to pray. And actually, before he came back from his sabbatical, we, we met and we processed, and I’d felt very clearly the Lord say to me, “Whatever his decision is, I want you to give your yes, not for him, but for me.
Like, to say yes to me.” [00:15:00] And it was, it felt, it was… I, I was nervous, but it was kind of, you know, you have those moments with the Lord where you’re like, “I don’t know what we’re doing, and I have no idea- Mm-hmm … what this is gonna be like, but I know that I’m giving my yes to the Lord, and in whatever capacity that ha- that, that ends up being.”
And so when he came back and shared what he had discerned, he essentially was saying… it was, he, there was a whole process. You need to get voted in, and he was like, “If I get voted in, I would take it, and here’s how I would take it.” And it was, it was coming from a place that felt very genuine and, and integrous to who I had experienced him as always being.
And he was really gracious. He literally looked at me and said, “If you say no, I won’t do it.” You know what I mean? Mm. He was, he was giving a lot of I mean, obviously that’s not how things work, but it was kind, you know, like, you know, to- Sure … to say, like, “Hey, you, this impacts you.” But I felt the Lord say, “Give your yes,” and and so I, I did say yes.
Now, before he had discerned and the Lord spoke to me, I said no. So that was a big deal for me to get to that place of, you know, “Okay, yes, let’s do this.” And I like to tell people, it [00:16:00] felt as if the Eye of Sauron, you know, in The Lord of the Rings, turned its eye on our church as soon as- Mm … that decision was made.
Mm-hmm. And all hell broke out. And, and essentially, I, I think it was a, in a spiritual way, it’s been a gift. You know, when you look back on it, ’cause it’s been a, it’s been about five or six years now. And so at the time it felt just so exposing, as if, like, every crack that was in our church, every crack that was in our own souls- Yeah
and our spirits was just exposed, and you were put under pressure. And not pressure to look good. It wasn’t like a, “Hey, let’s look,” People are just curious how, like,
[00:16:33] Phil: what you’re doing. They wanna know how you’re
[00:16:34] Becca: doing
[00:16:35] Phil: it, right?
[00:16:35] Becca: Yeah. Well, it’s not just that. I it is that, yes, but we’ve been doing like that for years.
It was a spiritual thing, where God- Mm … I think the Lord was coming and sort of, stripping things out of our, our church- Mm … to be able to bear the weight of- Mm … what Jay was stepping into. But what was hard is he was stepping into it as we were cracking, and it was… You know, so all, it, it was intense. A- and for me, me very personally, it was very intense.
I mean, we were coming out of COVID. [00:17:00] We were oh, there’s just so many dynamics. But, but it was an opportunity to build your character in, like, the deepest places- Mm … where you’re so dependent on the Lord. And so for me personally, I think for a lot of our staff that have made it through that transition, not everyone has made it through that I think we have become people who are more humble, who are m- more acquainted with what it looks like to pray and be alone with the Lord- Mm
um, what it looks like to be really dependent upon Him. Yeah, so it’s, in some weird ways, it’s, it’s been a growing up. Like, it felt like it was that moment where it’s like, oh, we have to grow up and be able to bear the weight of what God is, you know, asking of not just of our church, you know, for our city, but, you know, for the larger Vineyard movement.
It, you know- Sure … we kinda took on something without knowing we were taking it on, you know? So-
[00:17:44] Tyler: Mm.
[00:17:44] Becca: So anyways, that was kinda the introduction. Now that we’re kinda through that you know, the, obviously the practicals of that, you know. Again, Jay’s always had his hand in a lot of other things, so I was used to him traveling a lot or, or being gone and sort of running our team, you know, [00:18:00] and, and- Yeah
carrying on the vision of, of what he has. So that wasn’t, that part wasn’t so new. It was just, it just got coupled with a lot of other catastrophic things that kinda came all at once that, that put pressure in the system, you know? I feel like we’ve come through quite a bit of that, and and now I, I feel like it’s, it actually, it’s working.
And I don’t think it should work for everyone, you know? Like, I, I don’t think every person should take on those two roles. But again, in the Vineyard, we’re very much always like, “What is the Lord asking of us, and do we say yes to it?” Even if we don’t know what that is, and I think that Jay was giving his yes to what he felt like God was saying.
And so we’ve had to navigate, you know, what does that mean? And, and at the time, Vineyard USA didn’t really have even a staff. So th- this- Right … has been a new thing for them, too, like, to have him still. So there’s always, you know, little conversations in the background like, “Hey, is this working?” And, “How’s this going?”
And but essentially, you know, he, he’s with us a lot on Sundays. He makes sure he’s, he’s with us a lot on Sundays. But then throughout the week, there’s a lot of travel that happens. So I’m running our team, and you know, [00:19:00] kinda helping lead throughout the week and making sure that the church is, you know, the church that he still wants it to be, you know?
And- Sure … and I, I think there’s always tension in, in the executive role around needing… I, I don’t know if every exec has this. I do love vision, and I, I like- I have a little bit of that galvanizing, apostolic nature in me as well. And so I’m not afraid of those things, but I’m definitely not … I don’t like to come up with all of the unique ideas, if that makes sense.
Sure. Yeah. Like, I can discern a really good one. So, and I also get a little overwhelmed if I’m in the details too much. So I’m kind of a, I’m good in between, you know? So I’m, I’m good at listening with to Jay, but also being with our team and understanding when they’re overwhelmed with the details. But I don’t
At this stage of my life, when I was younger, I probably got more overwhelmed. But I feel, I feel like I’m, you know, I, I don’t know. In some ways it’s, like, perfectly suited towards my temperament to get to lead- That’s
[00:19:52] Phil: great …
[00:19:53] Becca: in this way, you know? So it works. It just works for us. So yeah.
[00:19:57] Phil: Mm-hmm. That’s really cool.
[00:19:58] Becca: Do you have any questions about that? I don’t know, it [00:20:00] was such a weird situation that I’m like, is there any other kind of person that is in this role? If they are and they’re listening, email me because I would love to meet you.
[00:20:09] Tyler: Fair.
[00:20:10] Becca: Yeah. And become best friends, you know? ‘Cause I feel like sometimes it’s, it’s a unique situation that’s hard to, to pinpoint.
[00:20:16] Tyler: You commented that not all the staff made it through that, and so I don’t know if that’s something you can speak to at all, just that transition. But, like, w- why would that be the case? I guess you say that and I think, “That’s interesting. I wonder what caused that.” Is that something that you can speak to, or is that more of a personal thing?
[00:20:33] Becca: Yeah. I mean, I think some of it, what’s hard is that all also hit around the COVID time where- Ah … the world was in crisis, you know? Yeah. So there was multiple layers of things happening. Sure. You know, I guess that’s sort of my spiritual assessment is I think the weight came- Ah … and we were being asked to step into something really weighty that revealed parts of our character that- Fair.
Yep … needed to be tended to. And either, either you kind of [00:21:00] were tending to, and I don’t wanna say people weren’t tend- You know, it’s not my business to judge, like, who’s tending and how, but at least for our church, I think there, there was a weightiness that came. And I think, too, with Jay becoming the national director things did change on, like, how do we lead at home?
You know, like, how do we- Sure … kinda carry this piece home? And I think that was hard for some folks. Like, there was a disruption and, like, a pain and a loss in that, of him being gone more- Really? … I think because we had worked together for so long. There was pain and loss in that for me, too, but it just, it was different.
And-
[00:21:29] Tyler: Sure …
[00:21:30] Becca: I definitely had to work through some of that.
[00:21:31] Tyler: That makes total sense. Thank you.
[00:21:33] Becca: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:34] Phil: Yeah. I, I, I think I remember hearing Jay say on one of the Vineyard podcast episodes just that, you know, when he first was offered the role the, the job description was written as, like, a full-time, you know, quit, quit your day job kinda, kinda role.
And, and he said- Yeah … “No, I’m, I’m not, I’m not doing it that way.” Yeah … “If, if, if you want me in the role, I’m, I’m gonna stay at my church. I have to stay at my church.” Mm-hmm. “And if that’s a problem, just please don’t hire me. It’s okay.” [00:22:00]
[00:22:00] Tyler: Yeah.
[00:22:00] Phil: So- Totally. Yeah … it was great that he kind of, you know, made that decision- Mm-hmm
and just decided, “Hey, I think I can be more effective in this national role- Yeah … if I keep my, my hands in deep at the local church.” So yeah. Yeah. That’s, that’s, that’s awesome. And as you know, Becca, I have just such a deep, deep respect and love for the Vineyard movement. It’s become a real bright spot in my life over the last few years, and I’ve loved coming to the, to the conferences in Cincinnati there and in, in Denver.
And when I was at the Denver conference last year I had a chance to come to your, to your new church building that you guys just- Mm-hmm … bought, which was really cool for you guys to get into that, Well, it was somebody else’s church building that you were able to-
[00:22:41] Becca: Mm-hmm …
[00:22:41] Phil: buy used. It’s always good when we can get a used church building and-
[00:22:45] Becca: Yeah
[00:22:45] Phil: turn it into our new home. But, One of the things that you shared with me then when we were I think we had grabbed lunch then, and you were sharing then that you guys were getting ready to you were kind of thinking through taking your campuses, your, I think you had three campuses at [00:23:00] the time, and sending those off as sort of individual church plants and, and moving away from the multi-site model.
And, and that’s kind of part of the reason why I wanted to have you on the podcast today was because I, I think that that’s a, a conversation that is happening a, a lot right now in a lot of churches- Yeah … where they’re, they had moved multi-site, and then for one reason or another, they chose, you know, to move away from it.
Talk a little bit about that journey for Arvada Vineyard and, you know, why you guys made that decision, and what was that like? Just share a little bit of that, that story with us.
[00:23:36] Becca: Yeah. Yeah, I think, For us, and again, you know, Jay different lead pastors, you know, come in different forms. Some take over big churches, some plant, but he literally drove across the country, planted this church with, like, 11 people, you know, from the ground up and, and grew it.
And so he’s always had that… I always joke that we’re never out of church planting mode, you know? There’s always just that, you know, little arm of, like, we’ve gotta be getting out in the community, parties, you [00:24:00] know, just, like, all of those kinds of things. So really early on, we were thinking about growing our church.
We were looking around at models and, you know, it’s like, what do we do? And so Jay visited a lot of places. Actually, I did, too. I went around the country and visited a bunch of you know, churches that were doing some kind of multi-mul- multi-site church, you know, options, and just seeing it. And we, we really liked the idea of it and not growing, like, a huge, like, too big to where you’re just maintaining a building, and you get, like, stuck in that.
It felt like it would keep- Right … us a little more nimble. And, and we just also saw churches in our city, you know, peop- church planters coming into our city and just burning, you know? Mm. They’d, they’d just… And, and all kinds of stuff would happen to them. You’d see them get really sick. You’d see them just not be able to manage you know, all the complexities of it.
They’d just come so excited and just burn, Mm … and, and we have always been really connected within, you know, the kind of network of churches within our city, and Jay in particular has always just had a heart to care for church planters. And so if people would come in our city, you know, [00:25:00] he’s like, “Yes, I’ll take you out.
Let’s, let’s hang out. Let’s connect.” So I think the idea of being able to sort of help… This could be a way to plant churches, but maybe help them sustain, you know? And so we’d always say we were building, you know, the model, like, the airplane while we were in the air- Mm-hmm … as we were doing the whole thing to begin with.
But yeah, we had three, three churches that we just, we, we called it decoupling or untangling as of… It’s almost been a year, actually. I just was- Mm … doing some reflection, and we made the final decision to untangle last March and our, had officially did all of it through last year, and by the beginning of this year, we’re untangled.
But but anyways, coming out, so we had done that, and it, you know, that had served us really well. Lots of good fruit. You know, we, we started some. We stopped some. You know, like anything you’re doing, you’re figuring out what works, what doesn’t. Yeah. But we had these three that we’re, we’re running still.
Really love our group of pastors, being connected. I actually planted one of the churches during that time and had given it over to someone else. But it was, it was just really Like, it was working [00:26:00] for us. But again, coming out of COVID, coming out of a lot of changes, we were considering some hires, and as you’re, as you’re doing that, you’re saying, “Does this work?”
It just felt like a good time to evaluate. And as you, as we looked around the country, a lot of those models of you know, multi-sites that we’d been looking at were breaking apart. And you had to wonder, why is this happening? You know, like, why are other churches who were really pushing this model breaking apart?
We need to make some decisions about, are we either all in on this, because some of the hires we needed to make would be like, are they being hired for that function or, like, for a specific church? And so we just had some internal things we needed to ask, but then we were looking around at the models and saying, “What, what is that?”
Like, why is that happening? And you know, you don’t wanna get to a place where you do that out of a place of pain, you know. So we wanted to be proactive in that. So we sat down with our pastors. It would’ve been maybe the August before that March, and had said, “Hey, we need to make these hires. We need to just get clear on, is this the model that we wanna keep moving forward?
Has it served us?” Like what, what is, you know, [00:27:00] or should we consider something different? And we took some days to pray together. We would, you know, literally walk off for a while, pray, come back, be like, “What do you think, you know, the Lord is doing?” And that we had a lot of prophetic, you know, images coming up.
A lot of things around, you know, growth and nature and John 15 and, you know, the vine and the branches and pruning to become more fruitful. Those were all things that came on pretty early, and then we would sit and discuss like, could we imagine this happening? And honestly, it was, it was emotional because we really loved being together, and so a lot of our pastoral team, They were nervous about losing relationship.
Like, that, I think that was the biggest thing is, like, we, we felt like, you felt like a family, you know, and you feel like we’re here, we support each other. I mean, I can … I have memories of when I planted the church that that, you know, my husband and I planted together. We, you know, had a year where our kids were really sick, and in the hospital, and one of the other pastors would drive up and preach and do…
You know, we were able to help each other survive through some pretty, like, intense seasons. And yeah, letting that go just felt like, ah, is this, is this right, you [00:28:00] know? But then there was also this excitement, I think s- like you could see stirring up for specifically the local pat- pastors of those churches of where they had vision in their own hearts that I think they were wanting to implement but also withholding, not because…
I, I, it’s funny ’cause Jay’s such a, like, releasing leader. I think his intention was always to, like, set them up to be able to lead and kind of just help, like, we’ll just help fill in the gaps in the background on things that maybe are harder- Mm … for, for them to manage. But I think out of that kind of honor and everybody trying to be kind to each other, you know, sometimes you’re not getting to fully lead out the way that you want.
And so yeah, we just started having more honest conversations as a team about that, places where they were desiring that, places where they felt afraid. And then places where even in my role as the exec, you know, I was able to… A- and again, when you’re doing these honest conversations, things start coming up that you’re like, “I didn’t know this was here.”
But, you know, feeling a little bit, like, wow, there’s times where I think we’re rescuing some of these pastors, Mm … from really taking full responsibility of their churches. Like, where something really bad [00:29:00] happens, they deal with it, they deal with it, and then it gets pushed on my plate or gets pushed on Jay’s plate, you know?
Right. And, and so they weren’t ever fully getting the experience of what it is to be a truly- The sink or swim
[00:29:09] Phil: moment, right?
[00:29:10] Becca: Yeah. Like, where this is, like, I’ve gotta, like, like, I gotta do this, you know? Sure. I’ve gotta, you know, recruit the leader or, you know, grow the church or do the thing. Like, it, like, in some ways the model we had done, what we had all agreed upon is that it was great at starting churches and helping a church, like, kinda make it through that hump of where we would see other church plants burn.
But it- It did not create a full independence. Like, like it, it did create sort of an enabling in some ways. And, you know, one of, one of the other local pastors had even said, he’s like, “I feel like I need to grow up, you know?” Mm-hmm. Like, “I haven’t fully grown up.” And it was almost like you have, like, your adult children and you’re paying their insurance for or something still.
Or I don’t know. Like, where you’re like, “You’re almost an adult, but we’re not fully releasing you to this.” And so after, you know … And we did a bunch of stuff. We had multiple meetings. We … You know, every church has their, you know, kinda local [00:30:00] elder team, so we would … You know, went around and met with them, and getting their experiences and the, you know, their discernment.
We were running numbers in the background. You’re doing all this stuff, you know. You’re- Sure … trying to figure out the logistics of it. But then last March we had a gentleman from the Table Group, you know, Pat Lencioni’s,
[00:30:15] Phil: Yeah …
[00:30:15] Becca: crew came and helped us. You know, they, they come and help you just get clear.
And so we were doing one of our conversations, and at the end it was just really clear. Like, everyone felt ready to go independent. It was just different moments of, like, one church feels really confident they can do it. Another is like, “How’s this gonna happen?” And we essentially made the decision in that meeting, even though we were like, “We don’t know how we’re gonna make this happen.”
But the, the point wasn’t to figure out all the logistics. The point was to make the decision so then we could start to- Mm … communicate to our churches. And so actually, once the decision was made, that actually got … It happened way faster than I expected. Like, I thought, “This is gonna be a two-year process.”
But I think once, you know, sort of like once someone has decided something, you wanna start living into it, you know? Right. [00:31:00]
[00:31:00] Tyler: So I- Sure …
[00:31:00] Becca: I, you know, so each church this last year worked really hard to with their teams and to, to detangle, like, finances and just a lot of the administrative support that would’ve been kind of given to the different churches.
And then we reshuffled a couple of our staff, you know, that were more central back to our bottom. So yeah, I don’t know. It was it felt It, it actually felt really sweet and, and good. And we’ve decided as a church, like in Arvada at least, that we would do it all again. We would just plant with the intent to help them become independent.
Right. Even if it takes three to five years to help them get there, but the, the intent all along would be that. Where I think before that, the motto we would always say is, “We’re better together.” You know, and I … And, and in some ways we were. Like, we bought three buildings. Actually, we have four buildings, but, you know, two of those churches have buildings because we can leverage the other one.
There were things you could do Mm-hmm … as an organization because we were together that were really honestly helpful. Like, things that, like, a- Sure … small church couldn’t probably do on their own. But I think in the future we would, we’d like to grow [00:32:00] our church again in Arvada and continue to plant in that way, where you come alongside, you support, you do all those things.
But that that pastor would know all along, like, and you will become your own, you know, your own church. So, and I think- That’s great … the other thing with that, too, is the Vineyard at large didn’t have as much infrastructure. So, some of the work Jay’s been doing at Vineyard USA has created a lot more infrastructure for churches.
So, in some ways our little team, it was, it was becoming redundant. There’s things that the Vineyard offered that we offered our, our pastoral team. And, you know, and you’re kind of like, “Well, I don’t need to participate in that ’cause we do this.” But now they’re doing that, so we should probably just go do that, you know.
So, some of the DNA of that way that we were together has been, I think, transposed into the larger Vineyard movement. And so, that’s another thing, too, is there’s just more structure for the Vineyard in general. It’s not, like, super structured, but there’s more care and support for, for churches. So, we’re still, you know, we’re a, a Vineyard area, and- Right
you know, are still in relationship and you know, we were all just texting about Palm Sunday yesterday, you know, and different [00:33:00] baptisms at the different churches. And yeah, we’re still connected and love each other, which is, I think, feels great. Especially ’cause some of those other networks we were looking at, I’m not sure if that’s how that has been.
If it’s … You know, I don’t- Mm. Sure … I’m not on the ground with those churches, but if it’s been, like, a good thing, a dramatic thing. But ours felt like it came from a, a deep place of discernment and prayer together, so.
[00:33:19] Phil: Hmm. Yeah, I feel like there was a, a season in, you know, recent church history where it, it felt like every church in America was having that, like, we’re gonna go multi-site conversation, right?
And it was, it was kinda like if you weren’t talking about going multi-site, like there was something wrong with you or something as a church. And and so everybody was trying it, and then I think, you know, it’s just, it’s gotten more common now to say, “Hey, you know, we, we tried that, and- I don’t know. It just, it, there’s nothing wrong with it, it just wasn’t, it wasn’t right for us.
Or the, what you just talked about with, you know, sort of, campusing as a form of church planting I think is becoming more common. Yeah. You know, I’m seeing [00:34:00] that. And so, you know- Mm-hmm … I’m, I’m in this weird spot where I’m talking to pastors all over, all the time, and I, like, I had a day where, like, you know, one moment I’m on a Zoom call with a pastor in Canada who’s, you know, just bought a building that it’s gonna become one of their campuses, and we were doing some design work on it for Plain Joe Studios.
And then, you know, so they’re all excited about this new campus they’re launching, and then, like, the very next Zoom call is with a church that was, you know, getting rid of their campuses. Mm-hmm . And in their case they actually, like, they had just done a major, like, generosity initiative together and raised a ton of money.
And so a part of sending the campus off as a church plant was actually, like, buying them a $2 million building. Mm. Like, that was a part of their-
[00:34:44] Becca: Wow. Yeah …
[00:34:44] Phil: you know. So just some crazy stories out there-
[00:34:46] Becca: Yeah. That’s awesome …
[00:34:47] Phil: of, you know, how it all works. But I think, I think the important thing is that you guys had a, a really great discernment process in that.
And it sounds like, you know- It was a very spirit, spirit-led decision, [00:35:00] which is awesome to see that modeled. I’m curious to know, like, how have the average, like, just the average person in your church, not, not a staff or a lay leader, but just kind of the out- Have they noticed? Is it just kinda like, “I don’t know, that’s something they’re doing”?
H- how has that been?
[00:35:15] Becca: Yeah, honestly, I think the, the way that we were running our churches, each church really did feel like their own by the-
[00:35:24] Phil: Mm-hmm. Mm …
[00:35:24] Becca: time we had gotten there, you know. So, the local pastor was doing all the preaching. They were the leader. People weren’t expecting- Mm … to see Jay, you know, in their church.
But they knew we were a part of a thing, and I think it was more of, “Oh, we’re a part of this thing. I know my-” Right … “pastor’s accountable. You know, like, he’s not just-” Mm-hmm … “some rogue person.” Which the pastors still are accountable, because we have structure in the vineyard for that. So, so they, the average church person really I don’t think even knew or cared, you know?
There’s some people- Sure … who have been within our system for a long time through all of the iterations. So, some of your, you know, long-haul people were like, “Oh, I don’t know how I feel [00:36:00] about this.” And, and, and then the biggest change would be the few staff that we shuffled around would have experienced quite a bit.
And then-
[00:36:07] Phil: Mm-hmm …
[00:36:08] Becca: and of course, they get to decide. Like, you know, when you do that, it’s, you know, people can decide if they- Right … want to stay or go or, you know. But I think the, those folks, you know, they’re obviously relationally, like, they switched churches, so there’s folks who miss them, you know.
But even then, it’s, it’s been okay. So, we haven’t had a ton of… There was a, a very small, I mean, I can name maybe three or four families that decided, “Hey, I’d rather go to Orbatum, ’cause I wanna be attached to the thing Jay’s doing, ’cause I was, I was okay with this, but I really want-”
[00:36:36] Tyler: Mm. “
[00:36:36] Becca: I c- I signed up for Mile High.”
Yeah. You know, like, “Signed up for this thing-” Mm-hmm … “and I’m okay with it in this extension, but I wanna be here.” I mean, it’s such a tiny little number so which is interesting, ’cause a lot of times you make a transition, you, you’re kind of, you know, looking at percentages of, like, 10%, 20%. You know, you’re- Right
you’re thinking you’ll, you’ll see a lot of that. But for the actual churches, I don’t think there’s been a, a ton of, I mean, there has been impact on a few individuals who [00:37:00] have taken on more responsibility, for sure. They would be like, “Yeah, are you kidding me? I didn’t know I would be, you know, doing books,” or, you know, some of the administrative things that they took on that we, you know, my role actually would have provided for them.
But again, that’s a small handful. But your average person who attends the church I don’t think would notice much of a difference at any of the churches, so. Mm.
[00:37:20] Phil: Well, the good thing is, is that if they don’t wanna do the books, they can hire Tyler’s company to do the books for
[00:37:24] Becca: them. That’s right. Yeah.
Exactly. Yeah.
[00:37:27] Tyler: My
[00:37:27] Becca: XP Entourage. Maybe they did. Yes. Oh, my… Okay. I was like, “Maybe they did.” Yeah.
[00:37:32] Tyler: Well, Becca you and the team at Arvada Vineyard have put a lot of intentionality into building out a rule of life for your staff. So I’d love for you to just unpack that a bit for us. What led you there, and what does it look like kinda day to day?
[00:37:45] Becca: Yeah. Yeah, I know. That’s so funny you’re asking us, ’cause like anything, it’s always moving, and we’ve actually been talking about how we need to redo this. So I feel- Oh … a little like, ah, you know. But yes. No, that’s great. Bring
[00:37:57] Phil: us into that process- Right? … ’cause that’s-
[00:37:59] Becca: We all do that, [00:38:00]
[00:38:00] Phil: right?
[00:38:00] Becca: Yeah. Like, we just- Yeah
we all need… Like, you’re in that re- kinda- Mm-hmm … we probably need to recommit to some things. But essentially, like- Oh, I don’t know. You know, maybe it was 10 years ago, 12, 15. I can’t… It all just is a blur now. Sure. I feel like you’ve done decades of things, but it’s been a while. You, we were just hitting those moments where I think, you know, a lot of us are in our 40s now on our team, so we all started this in our 20s, and we were l- losing our youthful vigor in our 30s.
Mm. And, and so I think you’re, you were pressing up against some emotional, spiritual immaturity. And so our pastors started to do a bunch of work around that. You know, you’re doing all the things. We, we have a whole process called Emotionally Focused in the Vineyard that we do that’s really deep into our emotional maturity with coaching and all kinds of things.
We were deep diving into, you know, all kinds of spiritual practices, just recognizing that kinda the pace of ministry is really intense. And- Mm … we, out of our, I think out [00:39:00] of our youth, we’re able to just do stuff. You know, you can just grind and go, and then all of a sudden our bodies are starting to break down.
I always joke that I had, like, a little twitch in my eye- … you know, from being a little just, I don’t know, too intense, you know? Right. And so, and we were watching pastors blow up, like, from moral failings. So that kinda put- Mm … the fear of God in us. We’re like, “We better attend to our souls. We better figure this out.”
And- Mm … and so it’s, it’s been a long process. It wasn’t just a rule of life. There’s so many stages to that. I have… I could tell you a million funny stories about stupid things all of us have done. And yeah, there’s just too many. But, but essentially- … out of that we started to say, “Hey, you know, we wanna…
It, it’s not just…” At first when we were doing it, it was kind of like individual. We’re all doing it. We’re reading books together. You’re trying to encourage the other. Like, “Hey, you should take a Sabbath.” You know, I’m like, “I know I should,” you know? And but no one really did, and you know, it’s like all those kinds of- I don’t know.
It’s like we, we want to live like Christians are supposed to live in the Bible, but we just [00:40:00] weren’t. And so I, I think over time, actually it was our spiritual formation pastor at the time, which was J- or Danielle Pathic, Jay’s wife. Mm. She started proposing, what if we, like, had a cre- like, we created a shared rule of life?
And and so she took us through, like, we did some rule of life stuff. I mean, we read some things on it, did some trainings. You know, and in some ways you’re just kinda checking off spiritual practices. But then we said, “What would it be like for us to agree on some things as a staff?” Like, we actually say, “We’re gonna do these few practices, Mm
together.” And and so we agreed the, the four practices, and this is where we’re kinda like, “We need to update these,” but the four practices we agreed on were, at the time, this is really funny, now we take a full Sabbath, but it was like take four hours a week- … of a Sabbath without a phone when we first started, ’cause we felt like it was such a sacrifice.
Now that I look back on that, I’m like, oh, my goodness, we were so silly. But but it’s take a, you know, taking a full Sabbath every week. Mm-hmm. Having, like, a, we call it a family meeting and a date night with [00:41:00] your spouse once a month. So one of the things we talk about for marriage in, in our church a lot is yeah, dating your spouse, but also, like, having literally a check-in where you map out your calendar and you talk about budgets.
And you, I, I used to call it fight night, you know? I could save all my things for fight night where I would talk about the things that are just hard that you don’t, you don’t wanna talk about on a date, you know? And so- Sure … but having a family meeting with your spouse. Hanging out with a friend, you know?
So if you, like outside of pastoral stuff, like, like someone who’s truly your friend, you know? Just something with friendship. And then quarterly taking at least 24 hours away for solitude. We, we didn’t, we’d encourage more, but actually pull away, you know? And so those are our four practices that we kind of agreed, like, these are all things we want in our lives, we feel like this would be good for us but, but we’re actually gonna say that we’re committing to this.
And again, it was, it wasn’t to be legalistic, it was, we were trying to reset culture and create- Sure … like, permission for people. And, and we have, our team does what we call weekly staff [00:42:00] reports, and so the report is you know, it’s sort of taken from the idea of, it’s a little bit of Getting Things Done by David Allen, where it’s like you take the one hour a week to, you know, plan your week sort of thing, your self-planning meeting.
Well, we incorporate the staff report in that where people are looking back on their week, they’re kinda saying, “Hey, here’s what I did. Here’s, here’s what I’m doing. Here’s my prayer request.” Our team has just done that well and it kinda helps them. They, they like doing that. Mm … and so we added to the staff report your, our rule of life, and it’s like, “How’s this going?”
You know, like, “What did you do?” And so our team just started reporting on, you know, It’s like, “Yeah, our Sabbath was like this,” and they’re sharing things that they’re trying with their families, and, “Oh, man, I haven’t taken a Sabbath.” And, and again, it wasn’t a shaming, like, legalistic thing, but our, our team is open and, you know, communicative, and so it was just helpful for people to start saying, like, “I miss my solitude again.
I miss my solitude again.” And it’s just given me grace to be able to look at people and say, “Hey, I’ve noticed you keep saying you need to make time for solitude, and you haven’t done that. So [00:43:00] how do we help you get that in your calendar?” Like- Sure … what’s, what’s, what’s stopping you? And a lot of times what’s stopping people isn’t our actual jobs, it’s our internal, it’s we’re afraid.
You know, we’re afraid to go be alone and listen to what comes up in the silence of, of being with the Lord. And so anyways, over time we- we’ve done that, and I know it’s … Now it’s just normal. What’s so funny is it’s so normal in our culture, if our team, like, you know, we do a big weekend where we’re all working, people are purposely taking a Sabbath later in the week, you know?
If, if we’ve missed, like even myself, if I’ve missed a Sabbath, I feel it in my body, you know? And I, I know I need to get that back fast so I can be better at my job, you know, for my team- Mm … and for the church. Even the dating of our spouses or being with friends, it’s just, I think it’s been, it’s been so life-giving and I, I, I, I could tell that something had shifted in our culture.
Several years ago my husband and I were in the UK and we were hanging out with some tenured pastors there, and we were out on a, a date night with them and laughing, having a great time, and I was like, “So tell me,” I just [00:44:00] started asking them like, “What do you guys like to do for dates?” Like, “What do you…”
You know, I just was asking what they enjoy doing as couples. And they all laughed, like, “When do you have time for that?” You know? And I… All, it, like, hit me, like, oh, we’ve curated a culture now where- Yeah … it’s not, this is, like, a, like I’m expected to make time to do this. And and it’s such a privilege, you know?
I felt, like- Sure … so grateful that we had cultivated and shifted our culture, you know, to, to see those things. I guess if you think about as executive pastors always do the scorecards. You know, we’re checking our attendance- Right … we’re checking the finances, we’re checking, you know, are people… It’s always hard.
There’s things, we all talk about how there’s numbers that can be moved, but- How do you check the spiritual temperature of people? It’s so hard to measure that, and I, I don’t know if we can, but in some funny way, that little staff report and the celebrating people getting rest and giving them permission to do those things has become something that I would say is on our scorecard if, if you have a actual scorecard, [00:45:00] you know?
Yeah. Sure. And we, and we-
[00:45:01] Phil: KPIs, right?
[00:45:03] Becca: Yeah, like the- Key
[00:45:04] Phil: performance indicators.
[00:45:06] Becca: Exactly. So, so, you know, it was something that’s happened over time, and it’s something that honestly our whole team would, would say that we, we still need to tend to. We just did a kind of off-site in January and brought in someone to do some soul care stuff with us, and we were revisiting this topic and saying, “Hey, how’s this working?
We actually do like the ones we have, but maybe we need some, some more maybe, you know, we really need to focus in on…” The solitude one is always the hardest, I feel like- Mm-hmm … for folks. And, and just I think the Sabbath, like, on a regular basis, like, a true Sabbath, ’cause it’s easier to be able to just do their personal work, you know, on their Sabbath day.
Like, I’m- Sure … remodeling my house or whatever, you know? So, those two feel like the ones that, I, I do think our team is doing it, you know, but it’s always something that needs to, we need to check in on. So yeah.
[00:45:55] Tyler: Awesome, thank
[00:45:56] Phil: you. That’s awesome.
[00:45:57] Becca: Mm-hmm.
[00:45:58] Phil: Well, Becca, you guys are doing a lot of [00:46:00] great things at Arvada Vineyard.
You’re doing a lot of things right, and it’s so good to just kind of have a little bit of time to talk through and have a great conversation about some good decisions that you’re making there, and that’s part of what we wanna do here on the podcast is just create space for, you know, interesting conversations with executive pastors who are just out there, you know, in the church world doing it on a daily basis and making mistakes and trying things and see what worked and didn’t work and continuing to move forward and, and, and hopefully seeking the spirit in the midst of all of that.
That’s something that the Vineyard Church does so well is seeking out a, a just a really healthy approach to both the word and the spirit, and I love that about all that you guys do. Thanks so much for being on the show today. We appreciate your time, and I’m sure we’ll see you again soon.
[00:46:52] Becca: Yeah. Awesome. Thanks for having me.
[00:46:59] Phil: Well, what a great [00:47:00] conversation with Becca. She’s a great example of just solid, faithful, local leadership over the long haul, and we appreciate being able to connect with leaders like her here on the podcast.
[00:47:13] Tyler: Well, that’ll close out our show for this week. Listeners and viewers, if you think about it, help us and let the internet know that you’re enjoying the show.
Leave a review wherever you listen, share an episode on social media and tag us, or click like on YouTube. And anytime you interact with our content, it really helps the internet overlords decide our show might be worth making a little easier to find. You can follow me at @TylerDrewitz, that’s D-R-E-W-I-T-Z, on Instagram, Facebook, all of the things, and follow the show at @BackstagePastors.
[00:47:45] Phil: And you can follow me at PhilTaylorXP. The Backstage Pastors podcast is brought to you by the Church Hub. The Church Hub serves pastors, ministry leaders, and their spouses through equipping and training resources. You can check them out at [00:48:00] thechurchhub.org. By the way we’ve got a whole bunch of cohorts that are coming up on the Church Hub that’ll be launched over the next few months for just about every role in the church.
So, if you are following that along, you’ll get information as it comes out. And we’d love to have you at one of the cohorts that happens through the Church Hub. Our podcast is brought to you by the Good Podcast Company, and our theme music is written by Seth K. We’ll see you on the next show.
