Phil and Tyler sit down with longtime executive pastor, author, coach, and leadership mentor Dan Reiland. Dan reflects on his ministry journey, beginning as John Maxwell’s second intern and eventually becoming one of the pioneering executive pastors in the modern church movement. He shares stories from his years at Skyline Church, the Enjoy ministry, and his 25-year tenure at 12Stone Church.

The conversation explores how the executive pastor role has evolved over the decades, the challenges and opportunities of church growth, and the importance of balancing organizational leadership with spiritual leadership. Dan offers a behind-the-scenes look at 12Stone’s decision to launch five campuses in a single Sunday, including lessons learned from rapid growth and the importance of strong systems.

Dan also discusses the calling and partnership between senior pastors and executive pastors, recounting the remarkable story of how God led him and Kevin Myers into ministry together. The conversation turns to leadership development, mentoring, generational learning, and the growing challenge of helping leaders interpret culture in a rapidly changing world.

Dan’s strongest leadership conviction after four decades in ministry is:prayer is not preparation for the work—it is the work. 

Backstage Pastor_Episode 11_Dan Reiland

[00:00:00] Phil: Welcome to the Backstage Pastors podcast. I’m your host, Phil Taylor. My co-host, as always, is Tyler Dravis. Tyler, we have one of the OGs in the XP world today. Mm. Dan Reiland has been serving the church world for over 40 years, first with John Maxwell, and then with 12Stone Church in the Atlanta area for many years during their time of going from basically non-existence to, I don’t know, however many campuses they have now, a lot.

Mm. And along the way, he’s served a ton of executive pastors. He’s really made himself very available to the XP community, and does all sorts of different cohorts and coaching and all sorts of things, a- and continues into his retirement now. Mm. And so, it’s just been great. It was great to just sit down and talk with him about [00:01:00] some of these things.

I also just got to spend a little bit of time with him at the XP Summit in Dallas just last month, and gosh, what a great guy. 

[00:01:10] Tyler: You know, Phil, my favorite thing about talking with Dan is hearing everything through the filter of 40 years in ministry. There is just something so powerful about someone who has faithfully grinded it out day after day for that long.

It’s not they didn’t get their idea or thought from a m- recent conference they went to and decided to change everything. They didn’t just pick up a book and now are influenced. It’s through years and years of practical experience. I just, I loved every minute of it. It was great. So with that said, let’s get to our conversation with Dan Reiland

[00:01:48] Phil: Dan Reiland I’ve been following your work for a number of years through your books and your ministry as the executive pastor at 12Stone Church. You are, Dan, you are a true legend in the XP [00:02:00] world through your writing and your coaching and your teaching, and really decades of pastoral leadership at 12Stone, and you’ve got plenty more in front of you.

Dan, thanks for being on the show. 

[00:02:12] Dan: It’s my delight. Great to be here with you, Phil, and with Tyler, and I’m looking forward to a great conversation. 

[00:02:17] Phil: Well, Dan I have to give a quick shout-out at the beginning of the podcast here to my nephew, Ryland Fox- 

[00:02:24] Dan: Come 

[00:02:24] Phil: on, Ryland … for helping get this interview scheduled.

Ryland is, He’s been on your team there at 12Stone for the last few years and loving it. And, you know, he commented to me, I, I reached out to him before the interview, and he commented to me that you have just this amazing ability at calling staff into really hard things, but in a way that makes them feel like they can kinda just do anything.

So, thanks for being a great coach to your team. 

[00:02:52] Dan: It’s, it’s been, it’s been a great… It’s been my pleasure. It’s my love. I, I, you know, it’s a calling. It’s it’s not really a career for me, it’s a calling, and I love [00:03:00] every minute of it. And, and like you said before, I’ll, I’ll receive that that prophecy that I’ve got more to go.

[00:03:05] Phil: That’s right. Well, you you are one of the really very first executive pastors in the country going back a l- quite a while. Could you just share a little bit of your ministry journey over these last, gosh, it’s four decades, I think? Your website says four decades. Yeah, 

[00:03:22] Dan: four 

[00:03:22] Phil: decades. So maybe just say, you know, say a little bit about that, your ministry journey, and, and, and a little bit about your, your most recent role there at 12Stone.

What you’ve been doing at 12Stone for what? 25 years or something like that, so. Yeah, 

[00:03:34] Dan: yeah. 

[00:03:34] Phil: Dig into that a little bit for us, Dan. 

[00:03:36] Dan: Yeah. Well, you know, I think, you know, I usually start with the church, but I’ve got to say it’s my, my… Our anniversary, Patty and my an- anniversary’s coming up, and so my, my history really is us.

And this June we’ll be married 45 years. Wow. And she’s the light of my life. She’s beautiful. Everybody l- everybody loves Patty. And she’s just big personality, wonderful energy. And so we’ve been doing [00:04:00] this together the whole time, so it’s really a shout-out to her. And, and but going back to the beginning, I finished up at Asbury Seminary, went to, back to Skyline Church, where Pastor Orville Butcher was the s- the founding pastor for, you know, all those years.

And all the… I was one of the 37 preacher boys that was raised up from the church. And so if you got called, a preacher boy, you know, if you got called, you got to come back and be an intern. So I was John’s second intern, and ’cause when I left, Pastor Butcher left, and John came. So when I came back- 

[00:04:33] Phil: John, just give us his last name, Dan

[00:04:35] Dan: Oh, Maxwell. I’m sorry. John Maxwell. There we go. Oh, wow. Just 

[00:04:37] Phil: so, so people know. Yeah. Not just any John. John Maxwell. Yeah. It’s a different John. 

[00:04:39] Dan: Yes. So I was his, I was his first executive pastor, and we, neither one of us knew what we were doing. Right. We had to make it up. And anyhow, my, my claim to fame is that I broke John Maxwell’s internship.

Apparently I was so bad, or the program was so bad, he s- That’s great … I was his second intern, and he shut it down. He had never [00:05:00] had another intern afterwards. So I broke John’s- Such a 

[00:05:03] Tyler: great 

[00:05:04] Dan: story. I broke his internship. Mm-hmm. I like it. And there was redemption to the story, though, because in the same conversation, he said, “We’re not doing that anymore, Dano.”

And he- … and, you know, he says, “No more of this, you guys going around getting donuts and sitting and watching us. You’re gonna work.” You know? And, and the redemption of the story was he invited me to- Be on the team, and that launched 20 years together at least. Wow. You know, and we’re still very close friends who just vacation together and, and he’s amazing.

John just turned 79, travels the world, writes a book- Yeah … every year. 

[00:05:34] Phil: Crazy. 

[00:05:35] Dan: He is, I love that guy. He’s a, my mentor and friend. Anyway, so those years there at, at 12Stone, I mean, at Skyline Church, and r- I got to, through John’s mentoring and coaching, got to rise up in leadership and become his XP. And then a day came when, when God called him to more of a national ministry and invited me to come with him.

And, and so we did the Enjoy thing for about six more years. You guys remember cas- cassette tapes? 

[00:05:59] Tyler: [00:06:00] Yes. 

[00:06:00] Dan: Yes. 

[00:06:01] Tyler: I, I, I just have a quick, quick little story.

[00:06:03] Dan: Yes … 

[00:06:04] Tyler: I used money from mowing lawns at 10 years old to join the Maximum Impact Club. Oh. And I got those cassette tapes and filled u- at 10 years, I, I was not a very cool 10-year-old.

[00:06:17] Dan: No, but you were smart. You were doing- That’s right. … yeah, smart stuff. So we got to travel and coach churches and write materials and do some really fun things for, for s- years. And then God, you know, I’m a pastor at heart really, and- Mm … God started wrestling with me. I thought I was gonna be a senior pastor.

And I would walk and talk with John in his backyard, and Patty, and a couple of mentors, you know. And, and it was really clear that, that that I could be a senior pastor. And they said, “You could be a good senior pastor, but you are called to be an executive pastor.” 

[00:06:48] Phil: Yes. 

[00:06:48] Dan: So I wrestled that down, and God spoke at 2:00 AM one time, fun story, cool story, if we have time, but to 12Stone Church, then called Crossroads.

Hm. And [00:07:00] that launched the next 24, 25 years just wrapped up last May. And God s- I mean, He just did amazing things in partnering with Kevin Myers. Oh my gosh, we’re… He’s the best. He, you… Like John, just an incredible leader. And so last May, we finished our triple succession- Hm … which was senior pastor myself, executive pastor, and CFO.

So raised up all three from within, developed them for years. They’re all leading amazing. They’re doing so well. 

[00:07:30] Phil: Love it. 

[00:07:31] Dan: And I’m kind of now out and coaching churches and coaching pastors and consulting with churches. Patty and I still go to 12Stone. We love it, and they’ve, they’ve invited me back, let me see, since then One, two, three, five, six or seven times to continue teaching the staff and coaching and, and doing some things with 12Stone.

And not on staff, but just say, “Hey, come back. Can you, you know, can you come and talk to this group or that group?” So I’m loving it. We’re having a blast. [00:08:00] 

[00:08:00] Tyler: That’s awesome. I love that. I love that story. Thank you for sharing it, for sure. I mean, through all of those years, you’re connected to a lot of XP type leaders out there.

And so kind of two questions about that. One, how do you feel like the XP role has changed if you rewind all those years ago from when you started to today? And then where do you see it going in the coming years? 

[00:08:19] Dan: Yeah. It was interesting because when it began, I was so reportedly in the first group back in SoCal, and, you know, the guys are still friends.

Paul Sailhamer, he was Chuck Swindoll’s exec pastor. He’s with Jesus now. But the group- Mm … we still stay connected. We still celebrate birthdays. I was the young one. Can you believe that? I was the young one in the group. But back then, we were just figuring it out how to help in the large… You know, that was kind of the early days of the early, of the church growth movement.

Mm-hmm. And things were happening and changing, and churches were getting bigger than they ever were before. And so no one knew what, how to, what to do with it, and that we were trying to figure out a way to let the senior pastors who were great communicators and [00:09:00] visionaries and how to sort of loose them and let them fly and do their thing with somebody else carrying and covering.

But in the early days Tyler, I think that there was a bit more of a combination of administrative things, both financial and, and ministry. When I’m- Mm … worthless in the financial and any of all those details, but they were kind of a combination. And very, very quickly it started to have two lanes. Mm.

And one was more the administrative XP and the other- Mm-hmm … was more the ministry XP. 

[00:09:29] Phil: Right. Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:30] Dan: God helped me land in the ministry side, the coach, the, you know, staffing, all that stuff. And in the really large churches, to answer your question, there’s a lot of different kinds of XPs now. 

[00:09:40] Phil: Right. Yes.

[00:09:41] Dan: It’s moved away from maybe chief of staff in the really, really large churches, but in the most of them, say 1,000 to 3,000, 4,000, that’s probably the big pocket. There’s still just the two. There’s the executive for finance and executive for ministry. 

[00:09:56] Tyler: Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:57] Dan: Where I see it going is more interesting, I think.

[00:10:00] Which we’re still figuring it out. I see some of it softening. 

[00:10:04] Tyler: Mm-hmm. 

[00:10:05] Dan: I think it was seen for a long time as, you know, the guy who runs the church or, you know, kind of the, the chief of staff kind of a, a vibe, you know? And there’s such a recognition now. We’ve… Now that we’ve had church growth principles and a prolification of podcasts and blog posts and so much information, we, we really know how, in many ways, to grow a church.

But without the power of the Holy Spirit, without a softening of soul care and soul awareness and- Mm … putting the word spiritual back in. You know, in the ’80s, we were given permission to bring business into leadership. 

[00:10:39] Phil: Yes. 

[00:10:40] Dan: And, and the last 15, 20 years, we’re seeing a desperate need for the Spirit to join back in with a partnership.

You have sy- Sure … you know, system and spirit. So I really see a lot of even business guys coming in to be XP. There’s a softening and an awareness and an awakening, a reawakening to the profound [00:11:00] spiritual need to be spiritual leaders- Mm … and take, you know, soul care and that kind of approach. 

[00:11:04] Phil: I love that.

That is such good words to just see that perspective over all those decades. And it’s so funny. You mentioned the church growth movement. I almost forgot that, like, that was a thing we used to talk about. Like- Yeah … we needed a movement to say, like, “Wouldn’t it be cool if churches grew?” Right.

Wouldn’t that be interesting, right? Yeah. We had to have a church growth movement. It’s so funny. 

[00:11:27] Dan: We didn’t, we didn’t know they really could before 

[00:11:29] Phil: that. Right, right, and, and so many had just been stuck at kind of, you know, whatever size they were for 15, 20 years. That movement really made it okay to try a lot of things that churches were reticent to try before that.

So- Mm … yeah, that was just kind of a… I hadn’t… I’d forgotten about the church growth movement. Mm-hmm. That was a thing we used to talk about when I was in Bible college. Well, you know, Dan, 10 or 12 years ago, you kind of made headlines in the church world f- at 12Stone Church, when you did this crazy thing where you [00:12:00] launched five new campuses in one Sunday.

Like, the multi-campus movement was, you know, still kind of new back then. Like, not everybody was doing it, and you guys did this crazy thing at 12Stone. You launched five campuses around the greater metro Atlanta area in one Sunday. Talk about that a little bit, but specifically what I wanna hear is 10 or 12 years later, you’ve had time to kind of think back on that day and that era.

You know, what do you think about launching five in a day? Would you do it again? No. Did you burn out any staff members? Did anybody die? You know? 

[00:12:39] Dan: Yeah. 

[00:12:40] Phil: Give us, give us the, give us all that. 

[00:12:43] Dan: Yeah, you know, nobody died, and … it was exciting. We hired 84 people in one year. That was insane. Oh, my gosh.

And just trying to staff five more and start, start the early days of building a central services. We didn’t know what we were doing. We were a little, we were a little late to build central, [00:13:00] actually. And, and, But it was, it was exciting. I, I think strategically, I don’t know that I would do that again.

Yeah. But there was clearly a a vision behind it and a strate- There was g- th- God was in on it because He, He spoke very, very clearly to, to Pastor Kevin. 

[00:13:16] Phil: Hmm. 

[00:13:17] Dan: And ’cause nobody actually wanted to do that. But God, God said, “I want you to do this.” And so, and Kevin always comes, you know, to the board and the lead team.

He, he’s a strong, visionary leader, brilliant communicator, but he never pushes his way in. He just, “I believe God told us this, told me this.” And, and for the 24 years to- together, you know, he would always say the same thing to the lead team and the board. He would say, “This is what I think God is saying.”

Does it resonate with you? 

[00:13:44] Tyler: Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

[00:13:45] Dan: And if it resonates with you, help me make it better. 

[00:13:48] Tyler: Hmm. 

[00:13:49] Dan: And we said it resonates with us, now not necessarily in one Sunday, but the five, you know. I was saying, “How about one a month?” And then I said, “Okay, how about one a week?” You [00:14:00] know, one, you know. One in a day. And, and so but God was clear, and clearly blessed it, and it worked.

But there was also a human strategy, I don’t know if that’s the right way to say it. 

[00:14:11] Phil: Yeah. 

[00:14:12] Dan: And we knew that we were, we were just hitting an edge at everywhere we were. There was nowhere to go, there was nowhere to put anybody, there was no… And we knew that or maybe I should say Kevin knew, but we, we knew that some- somehow, some way, the entire congregation had to feel this, had to be part.

[00:14:30] Phil: Yeah. 

[00:14:31] Dan: Mm. It couldn’t be the traditional, “Send 200 people out.” That was we had a s- that was a science. We just know how to do it, but everybody had to feel it. And so when we send 1,200 of your best adults out from the main campus, 1,200, 200 each, plus kids, e- even if you didn’t go, your friends did. 

[00:14:52] Phil: Yeah. 

[00:14:52] Dan: You knew somebody that went, and everything changed.

[00:14:55] Phil: Yeah. 

[00:14:55] Dan: And so it was a remarkable way that sort [00:15:00] of captured the entire church in this movement to launch five. So it was very unifying, it was very exciting, and all the, the quintuplets were birthed, and they were healthy, and they kept going. And today it was kind of cool, we just launched our 10th campus, first out of state.

And so God continues to bless the next gen. But it was… No, I wouldn’t do it again, unless those two things were true. One, you clearly heard from God, and two, there was actually a strategic reason for it. Otherwise, no. 

[00:15:34] Phil: But your wife stayed with you, so that’s good.

[00:15:36] Dan: She did. She did. 

[00:15:38] Phil: I’m, you know, I’m curious, like, you know, is there I’m not trying to dig for dirt here, Dan.

Yeah. But was, is there, like, anything that, like, was just a colossal failure out of that, that five campuses in a day move that we can learn from? Oh, 

[00:15:52] Dan: I have a cl- I, but I would certainly tell you a colossal failure, I think the team is so good at just making things happen- 

[00:15:59] Phil: Yeah, [00:16:00] yeah … 

[00:16:00] Dan: that, that actually I can tell you a misstep, you know, something that we didn’t see coming from, with all the growth that was preceding that, and, and and then the five campuses, it was just, things were just coming at us so fast.

We, we kinda got caught by surprise in that in a way, you know, we we- We kind of got a little sloppy on first-time visitors. 

[00:16:24] Phil: Hmm. 

[00:16:25] Dan: And, and, and not lazy. I mean, we worked really hard. But what I mean by sloppy, we had the systems and we did all the things, so sloppy’s not a good word, but careless?

Yeah

[00:16:35] Dan: because- Sure … we really didn’t have to pay attention to details in that season because people just, you know, if we didn’t follow up on the people who came last week, 300 more are coming the next week, you know? And so- Sure, 

[00:16:48] Phil: right … 

[00:16:48] Dan: that’s a really dangerous thing, and it got exposed when the growth started to slow down a little bit.

[00:16:55] Phil: Ah. 

[00:16:55] Dan: So what we were y- you know, it’s… And it wasn’t ’cause we didn’t [00:17:00] care. It was just that we’re dr- just trying to keep up with all the people, and so we were just running and trying to make things work and make things happen. And, and then when that slowed down a bit over time, it always does, you know, the ebbs and flows- Sure

we saw that the systems weren’t what we thought, and the first time- Hmm … gathering and the next steps wasn’t quite as strong as we thought. And it was just, it w- we were overwhelmed in a wonderful way, and then learned, like, wow, we’ve, we, we would’ve been wiser to pay attention to those systems and then change them, restructure them so they could keep up with the new thing at the next level.

Hmm. And that’s why I said, remember when we introduced late in the game, when we introduced more of a centralized service? That’s changed everything. Hmm. Rather than all of us scrambling- Hmm … they helped us build more of a unified system, and that’s like a machine now. It works wonderfully. 

[00:17:56] Tyler: That’s awesome.

Thank you so much for sharing. Dan, you’ve written a whole [00:18:00] bunch of books, and there’s one almost 30 years old now that’s called Shoulder to Shoulder: Strengthening the Church by Supporting Your Pastor. And I’ve got to imagine a book like that comes out of a really deep kind of calling and conviction.

And, I mean, Phil and I talk all the time. We’re big believers in the idea of pairing a visionary leader with someone who excels at bringing that vision into reality. And you’ve even mentioned Kevin being such a great leader, an entrepreneurial, visionary leader. And so can you just talk a bit more about your experience in that role, supporting your pastor over the course of ministry?

I mean, we all know these catastrophic stories of church divides due to the relationship between the executive pastor and the lead pastor not working, and you’ve served with the same people for years after years. And so just talk to us a little bit about that and just kinda what your relationship looked like and, and what led to the book.

[00:18:50] Dan: Yeah, I’ll start with the book. I think that was just like, ano- another thing where just God spoke and it was really clear. Hmm. And just a, a passion. I, I saw, I saw how tired pastors can get. [00:19:00] And, and s- senior pastors, I mean, they carry such a heavy load, and they, they you know, no matter what, the, the, the…

They have a great team hopefully, but the buck stops there. And, and so for me and my wiring to, to, to come alongside, it’s just the, the light of my life. And so I thought, “Well, maybe we could… It’s not just a handful of us exec pastors trying to figure out this new job that no one knows what it is, but maybe there could be thousands of people in the local church.”

When you think about the majority of churches are never gonna have an exec pastor. They’re not even big enough to have one. Sure. So could people in the congregation rise up to be supportive of their pastor? That’s where that book came from. 

[00:19:41] Phil: Hmm. 

[00:19:41] Dan: In, in the role to come alongside, I think God ordains partnerships along the way, where it’s not s- again, I…

For me, it’s not a job, it’s a calling. It’s a, it’s not a career. It’s a, it’s a relationship. It’s a partnership. Sure. And God allowed me to do just two over decades and [00:20:00] decades. One with John, of course. Clearly that was a calling and a connection. And with Kevin I can take a minute and tell you a story ’cause it’s a God story of, of ’cause it, it’s- Do it

it’s… We have to be really sure we hear God’s voice. We have to know that we know that we know so that s- ’cause sometimes those partnerships don’t work. I coach a lot of senior pastors and exec pastors who’s not working. Mm-hmm. And so we have to untangle it and try to rebuild the relationship and, but you gotta always go back to the beginning.

Were you called? Did God tell you? Was it a partnership? Hmm. So, you know, I was, it was in that era toward the end of the Enjoy, the cassette tape days. 

[00:20:36] Phil: Mm-hmm. 

[00:20:37] Dan: And my heart was going back to… You remember cassettes? I know. We have to tell the young ones, you know, look it up. Just Google it. You’ll, you’ll see it, you know?

Google c- Google cassette. And we remember talking about you know, I thinking God wanted me to become a, a senior pastor, and he made it clear that that wasn’t it, but I knew I wanted to… He was calling me back to the local church. And, [00:21:00] and so w- John, John and I, Maxwell, would walk and talk, and he would say, “Well, Dan, no, we’re g- we’re partners for life.

We’re gonna do this together.” And I, then after a while, I said, “No, well, if God’s calling you, you better go, and, but let’s l- but let’s still, you know, let’s not move far apart, you know?” Then, then I tease him- Sure … ’cause then he moved to Florida, so I said, “You moved,” you know? And, and so anyway, let me, let me get this shorter here.

It was about 2:00 in the morning. I was, I was wrestling through this season of whether or not I would be an, a senior pastor or not, and, and my mentors and coaches reminded me, “You were, you were born for this role.” I have a, 2:00 in the morning, and I don’t know about your theology, I don’t wanna weird you out, but, you know-

2:00 or 3:00 in the morning, I got up and walked down the hall, went into a room. Well, we lived over in Alpharetta. We were going to Andy Stanley’s church then. I was serving on the board. And, and and then I, I walked in the room, and it just, like, it just, like, lit. I mean, the wind of the Spirit was just this, like, what is going on?

And clearly the voice, not an audible thing, but a, you know, the inner quiet thing said, [00:22:00] “You, you will be an exec pastor,” not senior pastor. “You will be an exec pastor. You’ll be Kevin Myers’ exec pastor, and it won’t be convenient.” Oh. And it was over. Hmm. That, that was it. Wow. And so I went back to bed. And you know when you wake up the next morning, and you go, “Right.”

So I, I, I told Patty, and she goes, “That’s weird. You just met Kevin. You coached over there for a little while, but, you know, you preached for him a couple of times.” And so I called John, and I said, “John, this is really weird. I had this prayer thing, and I think God told me I’m supposed to be Kevin Myers’ exec pastor.”

And he he didn’t even talk to me. He goes, “Margaret, Margaret, Danno’s gonna be Kevin’s exec pastor.” He gets back, and he goes, “I’ll call him and tell him,” and I’m, and he hung up. And I’m going, “No, no, no.” I was so embarrassed, but you can’t stop John. I mean, you can’t, you know? And so he called Kevin, and here’s how they tell the story.

Kevin had to pull over in the car when John told him, and he told John, this is all written in his journals, he said, “I’ve been praying for an [00:23:00] executive pastor for two years.” Wow. “I have… I asked God,” he said, “I’d love Ryland, but Maxwell’s never gonna let him go, so give me something like Dan.” Hmm. And God said to him then that, that, you know, earlier, earlier, but before John called, I think it was, like, in January or something.

He says, “Stop praying for an XP. I have him picked, I have him picked out and set aside for you, and I’ll give him to you when it’s time.” Hmm. This is all written in his journal from way back. And then we called John called, told him that. Kevin called me, and I was on staff within a few months. 

[00:23:36] Tyler: Wow. 

[00:23:37] Dan: Yeah.

And so- We’ve just really got to pay attention to the partnerships. And when that happens, I think then there, there’s a, a, I mean, a relationship and a colleague. When that happens, there’s a, a clarity that helps you get through the tough times and the, you know, the finances and the buildings and all the craziness.

And then God knits you in a way that’s, that’s a [00:24:00] beautiful partnership. For example, Kevin and I couldn’t have different personalities. He’s all, all about race cars and motorcycles and Harley Davidsons. He actually races cars, you know. Sure. All things speed and fast. I have no need for anything speed and fast.

I collect fine guitars. I enjoy a great conversation on the beach with a friend. I mean, we’re s- I’m an old hippie from SoCal, right? Sure. And we’re just so different, yet when it comes to ministry philosophy, we couldn’t be more aligned. 

[00:24:29] Phil: Mm. 

[00:24:29] Dan: You can’t do that. God has to bring you together. Yeah. It’s, yeah, just seeing the vision and coming alongside.

In the old days, they called them kingmakers. Well, that’s not an appropriate word anybody can say anymore. But today, it’s just, it’s a spiritual partnership. 

[00:24:45] Phil: That’s really cool. I love hearing just kind of the history of how the Holy Spirit has, had guided both of you to, to begin working together, and it’s, it’s just really neat to kind of see you know, kind of get a peek into the window, peek through the window into [00:25:00] both your prayer life and Kevin’s prayer life and, and how that brought you guys together.

Very, very cool to see that. We’re gonna keep in the vein of, of doing a little bit of a book tour on your books you’ve written, Dan. You wrote a book called Amplified Leadership: Five Practices, I’ve got it here Five Practices to Establish Influence, Build People, and Impact Others. And one of those five practices, the last in your list was mentor a new leader, and you’ve certainly exemplified that over the years.

But I’d love to know you know, just kind of what that looks like in this, you know, kind of next generation of your life. My guess is that, is that you were one of the f- earlier people talking about that in your journey because I think it’s kind of a well-known fact that the generation just before yours was not great at that.

Mm-hmm. And so the next generation really had to kind of come along and say, “Hey, we need to prioritize this.” So what does that look like for [00:26:00] you now as you’re kind of, you know, coming to the, the the later years of your career? 

[00:26:05] Dan: Mm-hmm. I’m still following really some, some methods and structures I have for a long, long time, and I think probably it comes out of being blessed myself.

You know, I came from a, a broken home, didn’t… Never saw my dad again after 10 years old. Mm. And yet I consider myself one of the most blessed guys on the Earth because a series of five mentors sought me out, found me, this long s- long-haired skinny kid from SoCal, you know? And, and so it was so much was given to me and so much was poured into me, it was sort of embedded in my soul, and how could one not give that back?

[00:26:39] Phil: Right. 

[00:26:39] Dan: And so that was, it, that’s how it found its way in me, and then the practical nature of others investing on, in one-to-one. But my, my favorite method really is group, a small group of leaders. That’s when, how I started Joshua’s Men back in ’87, and it’s been going 39 years now, and- 

[00:26:57] Phil: Wow … 

[00:26:57] Dan: thousands and thousands of guys have gone through [00:27:00] that model.

But even in the church, just introducing a simple model through groups and, And pouring into men and women who are coming up in ministry. Now it’s really, it’s really fun. I g- I do get to coach in all ages, but I have a passion in particular for y- younger XPs as well. ‘Cause I think they have, you know, what’s different?

You know, what’s, what’s ahead in mentoring and coaching? I think one of the things that’s really, really different right now is the a- the greatest challenge for the young leaders coming up is the ability to interpret culture. 

[00:27:33] Phil: Hmm. 

[00:27:33] Dan: Yes. That’s probably the most different thing since when I started.

Culture didn’t move as fast. It wasn’t quite as crazy. It wasn’t so divided. It, you know, it’s changing now at a, at a exponential speed And a young leader’s ability to interpret what’s happening is gonna be key to their leadership. And the, I think the beginning of that interpretation is learning communication.

‘Cause if we don’t understand culture [00:28:00] and culture doesn’t understand us, and we wanna try to communicate the gospel to someone who doesn’t even understand us and we don’t understand them, we’ve, we’re already crosswise. And so their ability to understand what’s going on around them and not be stuck in the box, you know, in the church, like, this is how we do it.

We need to be open to listen and hear and learn. And frankly, int- so you asked about mentoring. I’m, I have wonderful mentors and wonderful coaches, but I probably learn, not more, but I learn a lot from Gen Z and the younger ones. I pay a… A lot of my learning and growth comes from people about a third of my age.

[00:28:36] Phil: Yeah, reverse mentoring, right? 

[00:28:38] Dan: It is. It is. I love asking, like, well- Mm … what music do you listen to, and what TV do you watch? And they, they name TV shows I’ve never heard of. They go to restaurants I can’t find, you know? And so it’s just this amazing education, and then I go to culture and say, “Tell me how you see this.

Tell me what you see. Tell me what’s [00:29:00] going on,” and I promise it’s different than those of us who are older. Mm. And that’s a wonderful way to learn, the reverse mentoring, but my heart’s still in it. And, and really, my favorite, my favorite two, two-word definition of coaching is simply pay attention. 

[00:29:17] Phil: Mm, yes, 

[00:29:17] Dan: yeah.

If we’ll pay attention and read the moment and read, read the room, just don’t be about us, be about everybody else, and just pay attention, God will give you the right word for the right person in the right moment. Yeah. But we’ve got to pay attention, and I think probably the most dominant emotion in this culture that is rapidly changing and difficult to interpret is anxiety.

And I don’t mean a clinical anxiety, but a, what I call just an, a, a, a, a restless anxiousness in your gut. 

[00:29:51] Phil: Mm. 

[00:29:52] Dan: And that is a dominant thing. You know, the number one altar call at 12 Stone, you know, when we have a come forward, you know, and for prayer, is [00:30:00] anxiety. Mm. Period, for sure. Young s- residents, students coming up anxious.

And so when, when we learn to help people through that anxious identity in a cul- in a culture that’s changing so rapidly, that doesn’t help anything. That’s, that’s one of the future cutting edges for us to all to figure out. 

[00:30:23] Tyler: Mm. That’s great. Well, I know you shared about a year ago, transitioning off staff at 12Stone.

You shared about kind of coaching and mentoring and different things. Anything else you’re kind of kicking around as you look at ministry over the next few years? I know you’re retired, but it sounds like not so much. And so anything else that you have just in your heart or just something you’re thinking about and ready to share at all?

[00:30:46] Dan: You know, it’s, it’s a, it’s a funny one Tyler. You know, many places that I go, they’ll say, “Okay, what’s, what’s the secret to,” you know, I’ll go back to the old-fashioned term, church growth? I know in the ’90s it was church health, and then now we s- now we’re, then, then next we were trained to say healthy [00:31:00] and productive.

It’s always a new thing, you know? 

[00:31:01] Phil: Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:02] Dan: But I’ll get asked, “So what’s the secret? What’s the thing to make the church grow?” ‘Cause when we’re really honest, we’ll set all the other more appropriate words a- a- aside, you know, aside and say, “Yeah, I want my church to grow,” you know? And because of course we do.

We want to reach more people for Jesus, so let’s just all get over it and a- admit we want to see a growing, healthy church that’s vibrant and who loves Jesus. And, and so they’ll say, “What’s the secret?” And I’ll, and I’ll tell them, “Well, honestly, it’s prayer.” 

[00:31:31] Tyler: Mm. 

[00:31:31] Dan: And they get this profoundly disappointed look on their face.

And they go, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I know, I know. Now, what’s the thing?” And I go, “That’s actually the thing.” And the, the older I’ve got, the longer I’ve led I mean, I’ve always prayed, and I love to pray. I’ve had a prayer room in my p- last home for 24 years, and- 

[00:31:54] Phil: Hmm … 

[00:31:54] Dan: now we call this new one my, the prayer study, you know?

[00:31:57] Phil: Hmm. 

[00:31:57] Dan: Where it’s just, it’s a special sanctuary. [00:32:00] I love to be there, and I promise that is what’s the power behind everything that the church does. 

[00:32:07] Phil: Hmm. 

[00:32:08] Dan: And so, as a younger, as a younger pastor prayer for me was more of a dutiful… I was more of a dutiful soldier. I knew I was supposed to pray, and I prayed, and I did, you know, and, you know, prayed through the lists and all, but it was more of a, “I checked that off.

Now I gotta go get my work done.” 

[00:32:25] Phil: Sure. 

[00:32:26] Dan: And it took me a long time to realize that is my work. 

[00:32:28] Phil: That’s the work, yeah. 

[00:32:29] Dan: That is the work. And, and and I don’t have to perform and click my heels and do all the things in prayer. I can just sit with the Father. 

[00:32:37] Phil: Yeah. 

[00:32:37] Dan: And He talks to me, and I talk to Him, and it’s rich, and it’s beautiful, and I love it.

And if there’s anything I could share is that we can’t pray too much. We just can’t. 

[00:32:50] Phil: There’s so much guidance that comes in, in that space, right? And I, I feel like we could spin our wheels for a long time trying all [00:33:00] these different things and wondering why it’s not working and whatnot. And, and if we, you know, just spend time in prayer, the Holy Spirit guides us and helps us make decisions in our leadership at church, in our leadership with our staff, in our leadership with starting new ministries and campuses and whatever else.

And it’s, It cuts a lot of, it cuts a lot of the dumb tacks out- Yeah … when we just spend more time in prayer. I love that. I think probably everybody listening would admit that they could probably spend more time in prayer- Mm … for their churches and their roles. It’s good. The- It’s good stuff.

[00:33:36] Dan: Yeah, the interesting tension, though, is we, we feel like we should be doing something. Right. Like, we have so much work to do. And, and yet, I… It’s just, we know, we, we, and we know the principle. You know, the, the earlier we pray, the more we pray, and all that kind of stuff, it’s going to go better. But even, even with, you know, the thing I love maybe the most w- besides staffing in, in, in churches, leadership development.

[00:34:00] And i- just a good word to maybe share right here to the thousands and thousands and thousands of wonderful pastors of smaller churches who don’t have a big staff, and they don’t have a big- Mm-hmm … congregation. And what I would wanna say to you is, is, number one, never under- never underestimate the power of one more leader, just one.

[00:34:19] Phil: Mm. 

[00:34:20] Dan: I know we need 10, 15, 20, 30, 50, but never underestimate the power of just one more leader. Mm. And God can help you pray them in, and you can just begin to teach them what you know and take them through a book and come alongside and encourage them. And, and when I say one more leader you know, pastors, imagine one more someone a little like you.

[00:34:42] Phil: Yeah. 

[00:34:43] Dan: That’d change your church. Mm-hmm. And so we don’t always have to h- know the pipelines and all the big things that churches of 10,000 do. You can start with one at a time and just- Mm … teach them what you know, and God will bless it. God will bless it. 

[00:34:58] Tyler: Yeah. It’s good. [00:35:00] 

[00:35:00] Phil: Shepherd the flock that is among you, right?

[00:35:02] Dan: Yeah. Mm. Yeah. 

[00:35:04] Phil: Well, the the website is danryland.com. Most of your books are on Amazon. Dan, thanks so much for, for being on the show today. How can people follow up with you and get coaching and consulting and whatever else you’re, you’re working on? 

[00:35:19] Dan: Yeah, thanks, Phil. The easiest way is just my website.

Just go to danryland.com, danryland.com, and you can kind of check it out there and, and see if there’s something that might be helpful. And but this is a delight. I love talking with pastors, leaders like yourselves, and great to meet you guys, and I hope that you guys c- c- continue d- doing what you’re doing for a very long time.

[00:35:41] Phil: Thank you, Dan. And thank you for just being a really a steady, long-standing leadership presence- Mm … for so many, literally thousands of, of leaders over these four decades of ministry. You’re, you’re you’re a, a, a great person to follow and and, and look to [00:36:00] as a guide for how to do it.

So thank you Dan, for being on the show today and for serving so many. 

[00:36:05] Dan: Thank you, Phil. Thanks, Tyler. 

[00:36:07] Tyler: Thank you.

[00:36:13] Phil: Man, that guy has been around the block and back a few times and just keeps on going. Tyler you know, after our interview, he had commented to you and I how much he just really loved the casual nature of the conversation. Mm-hmm. A- and I, I love it when we get to just sit down with somebody like him, who again, is just coming in with so much wisdom.

And just rather than having like a super focused, tight interview with, you know, hit one topic and that’s it, to kinda just let it ramble a little bit and have a little bit of fun just kinda hearing some of those stories with a guy like Dan and all of his experience. 

[00:36:54] Tyler: Oh man, I felt the exact same way.

I mean, as I mentioned, I’ve been a huge fan of [00:37:00] John Maxwell since I was a young boy, and so getting the chance to sit down and talk with Dan was incredibly special for me personally. And honestly, the thing that’s probably gonna stick with me the most was hearing him talk about growing a church through prayer.

In a world where so many conversations around church growth become about strategy and systems, and it just seems like, given all of his background and all of his experience, that’s what he would’ve said. But it was just so powerful to hear someone s- with that much experience continue to point back to dependence on God.

Mm. You can just tell he’s the kind of leader you could sit with for hours and keep learning from. 

[00:37:35] Phil: That’s right. That’s right. Well, Tyler, that’s gonna be our show for today. Tell our listeners how they can engage with you and all that you do at myxp.church. 

[00:37:46] Tyler: Absolutely. You know, at myxp.church, we help solve day-to-day operational challenges that churches face, including bookkeeping, payroll, and expense management.

There’s plenty of companies that you can, that can send you monthly financial reports, but what makes [00:38:00] us different is that we stay engaged with your church and help you understand what’s actually happening financially so you can make clear, informed decisions. Head to myxp.church for pricing and more details.

And how about you, Phil? 

[00:38:12] Phil: Yeah. Well, I’m full-time with Plain Joe Studios. We’re an architecture and design firm. And you know, if you are if your church is working on a project, you know, we’re, we’re sort of focusing in on churches and non-profits, Christian schools. Your church is getting ready to expand, you need to add to your building, or you’ve just got a building that is, quite honestly, just very dated we call that a design intervention.

We’ll come in and help you figure out how to, how to bring it into today’s world. And so, I would encourage you to just check out some of our work at plainjoestudios.com, and then get in touch with me and we’ll talk about your project. Another thing that I, I do a lot of kind of outside of Plain Joe is a lot of executive pastor coaching, and it’s something I really, really love doing.

And so if you are new in the XP role, or if [00:39:00] you have hit kind of a new season reach out to me for coaching. That’s kind of the two areas that I really love to engage in. I just got a new guy that I started coaching with, and just to give you a sense of kind of where I love to jump in this guy’s church was running

It grew from zero to 500 over 20 years, okay? So they were in that kind of a space for about 20 years. Then they moved into their first building- Hmm … one year ago, and they’re now running 1,000. Oh, wow. So- Good for them … 20 years, zero to 500. One year, 500 to 1,000. So he reached out to me and said, “Man I, I thought I knew what I was doing until now.

And so it’s time for some coaching for this next new season of, of ministry and life.” And so we, we’re, we’ve been having a good time getting into it. So yeah, reach out to me about any of that, phil@backstagepastors.org. And you can find me on Instagram, philtaylorxp, and you can follow everything related to the Backstage Pastors podcast [00:40:00] at backstagepastors.

[00:40:02] Tyler: And you can follow me at @tylerdrewitz. That’s D-R-E-W-I-T-Z. The Backstage Pastors podcast is brought to you by the Church Hub. The Church Hub serves pastors and their teams. Check them out at thechurchhub.org. Our podcast is produced by the Good Podcast Company. Our theme music was written by Seth K. We’ll see you on the next show.